IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs...

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
In fact, challenging an idea implicit in the opening thread is debate, not derailment.

You didn't do this. You substituted a different concept for the one in question. Because, you see, compensating Israel for damage done to Palestine is not an implicit idea when the discussion is about Israel dropping cluster rounds in residential Lebanon. You do realize that they are two different countries, don't you? It would be like starting a thread detailing Mexican-American grievances, and someone else insisting on discussing Canada.

Also, this

Quote:
Most liberals will take any opportunity to avoid a simple, dignified, on-topic competition between ideas, and claiming that an opposing poster is guilty of what they are so often guilty of - deviating from the thread topic - is among the evasions they employ.

Is a baseless assertion for which you can provide no evidence.

Cycloptichorn

The degree of divergence from the thread topic was trivial compared to responses that get posted in threads on the Politics board every day, and you are using it as a tool of political censorship. When I start a politics thread, by the way, I get posts from liberals that are utterly off topic. I will not conform to a standard that few if any members here meet. I will not respond to any more iterations in this distraction of yours. If you don't want to respond to my posts, then don't.

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I do, however, want to respond to your posts; and so I shall continue to do so. I suppose you might tell me to 'drop dead' again, but I think I can handle that.

Making baseless assertions about 'Most liberals' is a poor rhetorical tactic, one that you cannot support with fact; therefore, I would advise against it in the future if you don't want people challenging your posts.

Of course there are threads that wander, but there are those - like yourself - who will intentionally derail the thread, and then attempt to force all discussion to the new topic.

Cycloptichorn

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Let us examine the possible reasons that might be given for the use of cluster bombs and similar.

1. They were tit-for-tat for the unprovoked and indescriminate use of anti personel weapons against civilians started by Hezbollah.

2. Civillians were advised by the Israelis to leave Hezbollah territory prior to attack.

3. Hezbollah are self declared annihilationists and the so-called "rules of war" don't apply.

No.1 must have been totally expected from Israel's consistent policy of hitting back "harder". The fact that the Lebanese condoned Hezbollah instead of disarming them made this somewhat inevitable.

No.2 was logistically invalid. Civilians were either reluctant to leave, unable to leave, or co-erced into remaining.

No.3 shows "dangerous looking" enemies of Israel what to expect.
The collective psychology of the Israelis post-holocaust is "Never again !Annihilationists don't mess with us - or we will fight any way we see fit".

In short, No 2 paid lip-service to a moral code which has little practical application to a war-weary people who know the code is meaningless to their enemies.

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fresco

Quote:

The collective psychology of the Israelis post-holocaust is "Never again !Annihilationists don't mess with us - or we will fight any way we see fit".

Are you trying to say that Israel have the right to use 'cluster bombs' because of their 'holocaust' history ?

And Lebanese/Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, because the Palestinian 'ethnically cleansed' history doesn't count. ?

Playing the 'holocaust card' again hey ? hmm

This might be of interest to you.

Quote:

Jews, who were the main targets of Nazi racism, 'face a very different sort of problem today, one that is partly of their own making,' wrote Ami Eden, national editor of The Forward, in the Jan. 29 New York Times.

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freedom4free wrote:

fresco

Quote:
The collective psychology of the Israelis post-holocaust is "Never again !Annihilationists don't mess with us - or we will fight any way we see fit".

Are you trying to say that Israel have the right to use 'cluster bombs' because of their 'holocaust' history ?

And Lebanese/Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, because the Palestinian 'ethnically cleansed' history doesn't count. ?

Playing the 'holocaust card' again hey ? hmm

This might be of interest to you.

Quote:
Jews, who were the main targets of Nazi racism, 'face a very different sort of problem today, one that is partly of their own making,' wrote Ami Eden, national editor of The Forward, in the Jan. 29 New York Times.

You're pretty clear about the Israeli use of cluster bombs, but all you have to say about the hundreds of atrocities committed by the Palestinians, e.g. firebombing school buses is, "they deserve it."

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Brandon9000 wrote:

freedom4free wrote:
fresco

Quote:
The collective psychology of the Israelis post-holocaust is "Never again !Annihilationists don't mess with us - or we will fight any way we see fit".

Are you trying to say that Israel have the right to use 'cluster bombs' because of their 'holocaust' history ?

And Lebanese/Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, because the Palestinian 'ethnically cleansed' history doesn't count. ?

Playing the 'holocaust card' again hey ? hmm

This might be of interest to you.

Quote:
Jews, who were the main targets of Nazi racism, 'face a very different sort of problem today, one that is partly of their own making,' wrote Ami Eden, national editor of The Forward, in the Jan. 29 New York Times.

You're pretty clear about the Israeli use of cluster bombs, but all you have to say about the hundreds of atrocities committed by the Palestinians, e.g. firebombing school buses is, "they deserve it."

Brandon, if Americans had provided state of the art - hi tech military weapons (similar to those used by Israel) , i can assure you, palestinians wouldn't be wasting time 'firebombing school buses, because of the low amount of death rate. They would be using 'Israeli tactics'. They have no other means to fight of the occupiers of their land.

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freedom4free wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
fresco

Quote:
The collective psychology of the Israelis post-holocaust is "Never again !Annihilationists don't mess with us - or we will fight any way we see fit".

Are you trying to say that Israel have the right to use 'cluster bombs' because of their 'holocaust' history ?

And Lebanese/Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, because the Palestinian 'ethnically cleansed' history doesn't count. ?

Playing the 'holocaust card' again hey ? hmm

This might be of interest to you.

Quote:
Jews, who were the main targets of Nazi racism, 'face a very different sort of problem today, one that is partly of their own making,' wrote Ami Eden, national editor of The Forward, in the Jan. 29 New York Times.

You're pretty clear about the Israeli use of cluster bombs, but all you have to say about the hundreds of atrocities committed by the Palestinians, e.g. firebombing school buses is, "they deserve it."

Brandon, if Americans had provided state of the art - hi tech military weapons (similar to those used by Israel) , i can assure you, palestinians wouldn't be wasting time 'firebombing school buses, because of the low amount of death rate. They would be using 'Israeli tactics'. They have no other means to fight of the occupiers of their land.

You can be a guerilla fighter without choosing the most horrible atrocities against the weak and helpless. Nothing can justify a deliberate attack on children. The ease with which you give these monsters a pass on it is disgusting.

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4f4,

The "land occupancy issue" can only be solved by negotiation ..a concept which seems significantly absent in Islam given the fiasco of attempted democracy in Islamic states. Here it seems that pathological martyrdom takes precedence over practical well-being.

This talk of "rights" becomes academic when a pathological enemy has the declared intention of annihilation coupled with its own martyrdom. Survival instinct displaces armchair ethics in a fight for existence against "the insane". If you side with annihilationists who instigated this conflict, as your history on this forum implies, you forfeit the luxury of talking the niceties of "rights". Let us hear you condemn the annihilationists...suggest solutions instead of making one sided complaints....and then you might gain a little respect ! Here's your chance to give up the idiocy of Zionist conspiracy theories and show us you have compassion for both sides.

Well................ Question

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Brandon9000

Quote:

You can be a guerilla fighter without choosing the most horrible atrocities against the weak and helpless. Nothing can justify a deliberate attack on children. The ease with which you give these monsters a pass on it is disgusting.

The civilians in a democratic state tend to elect the leadership that wages war. If they do not elect that leadership, they tend to enable the leadership and socioeconomically support the military that fights the war. Civilians are participants in the warfare of their elected governments; where destroying the advancing military is not a viable option, disrupting the security of the electorate that has in one way or another fielded said military becomes the obvious alternative.

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fresco wrote:

4f4,

The "land occupancy issue" can only be solved by negotiation ..a concept which seems significantly absent in Islam given the fiasco of attempted democracy in Islamic states. Here it seems that pathological martyrdom takes precedence over practical well-being.

This talk of "rights" becomes academic when a pathological enemy has the declared intention of annihilation coupled with its own martyrdom. Survival instinct displaces armchair ethics in a fight for existence against "the insane". If you side with annihilationists who instigated this conflict, as your history on this forum implies, you forfeit the luxury of talking the niceties of "rights". Let us hear you condemn the annihilationists...suggest solutions instead of making one sided complaints....and then you might gain a little respect ! Here's your chance to give up the idiocy of Zionist conspiracy theories and show us you have compassion for both sides.

Well................

Any and all "Israeli" death is to be blamed squarely on the Zionists. No illegal Israeli invasion of Lebanon and Palestine = no legitimate Hezbollah resistance counter-attacks.

If not for the Zionist onslaught upon Lebanon, Hezbollah would not have been forced to couner-attack with rockets for self-defense. If not for the the history of Zionist aggression in the region, a group like Hezbollah would have no purpose and would have no reason to exist. It was Israel that violated international law by unleashing blatant aggression upon a sovereign country and deliberately targetted civilians in a manifestation of state terrorism. It is Israel that today still continues to occupy Lebanese territory on Shebaa Farms as well as Syrian and Palestinian territory. The illegal occupying regime of Jerusalem still rears its head. Unless this occupying regime is eliminated, there must be a fury of attacks against "Israel" in an effort to liberate all Palestinian territory.

Any and all acts by Hezbollah towards Israel amounts to national resistance especially considering the issue of Shebaa Farms. National resistance is a fundamental right for all oppressed peoples.

Here's something for you to read : Ethnic Cleansing and the "Moral Instinct"

"How the West and free press under-wrote Israel's ethnic cleansing."

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I hate, hate when threads get moved like this.

A sure way to kill any discussion that would be going on.

Cycloptichorn

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4f4,

Civility declined yet again! Liitle wonder your cause is going nowhere !

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Quote:

Civility declined yet again! Liitle wonder your cause is going nowhere !

B.S

Back on topic

Quote:

Collective punishment: Israel's use of American-made cluster bombs poses greater threat than expected to South Lebanese

Other recent findings confirm that Israel may have dropped as many as 60 percent of the cluster bombs it used in the latest conflict in the 72 hours immediately before the cease-fire. Military analysts on the ground offer two explanations.

First, sheer frustration, hatred, and rage by Israel's leadership and its obsession with punishing Lebanon for its more than 85 percent support (including Lebanon's middle class and Christian citizens) for Hizbullah's resistance to Israel's attempted reoccupation up to the Litani River.

Second, a desire by Israel to get rid of as much of its US cluster-bomb inventory as possible, which the Pentagon has stipulated must be reduced to a lower level before Israel can reorder newer models like the M-26. This is why the 33-year-old CBU-58, almost extinct, was used so widely. Israel was cleaning out its CBU closet for new orders, one Lebanese Army source reported.

dailystar

So let me get this straight. The Pentagon insisted that Israel have their current inventory of cluster bombs "reduced" before it will be able to order newer, hipper cluster bombs?

And the Pentagon had to know that the only way to for the IDF to reduce that inventory was to use a ton of it in highly concentrated civilian areas? Where the IDF knew they were going to hit women, children, the elderly, the disabled, the ill?

All for the purpose of Israel being able to get the next generation of cluster bombs from the US more quickly?

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IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs...

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