If God is both omnipotent and omniscient, we would be forced to conclude that all the evil and human suffering that now exists must have at one time existed only in the mind of God and that he deliberately unleashed these abominations on his intelligent creation in an act of celestial sadism.
How then do we account for the qualities of love, justice and mercy we as humans are wont to display from time to time? Assuming the existence of God, could the creation surpass the creator in these attributes?
Quote:One cannot be omnipotent if one is not also omniscient, and therein lies the paradox.
Thank you, I finally get it!
neologist wrote:If God is both omnipotent and omniscient, we would be forced to conclude that all the evil and human suffering that now exists must have at one time existed only in the mind of God and that he deliberately unleashed these abominations on his intelligent creation in an act of celestial sadism.
How then do we account for the qualities of love, justice and mercy we as humans are wont to display from time to time? Assuming the existence of God, could the creation surpass the creator in these attributes?
Let's make the problem simple; let's NOT assume the existence of God. And watch all the hand-wringing and self-loathing and whining vanish.
But, if you want to explore the problem assuming the existence of God, just as an academic exercise, well, that's different. Then I guess we would be forced to conclude that the world is the way is it because god intended it to be that way (full of good stuff and bad stuff).
neologist wrote:If God is both omnipotent and omniscient, we would be forced to conclude that all the evil and human suffering that now exists must have at one time existed only in the mind of God and that he deliberately unleashed these abominations on his intelligent creation in an act of celestial sadism.
Bingo ! ! !
Somebody give that boy a cee-gar . . .
Quote:How then do we account for the qualities of love, justice and mercy we as humans are wont to display from time to time? Assuming the existence of God, could the creation surpass the creator in these attributes?
One very simple explanation is to discard the assumption of archaic, puerile creator based upon the model of a nomadic patriarch in the middle east thousands of years ago.
duce wrote:Quote:One cannot be omnipotent if one is not also omniscient, and therein lies the paradox.
Thank you, I finally get it!
One cannot have two truths in contradiction. Therefore, one who is omnipotent must have the ability to choose the things he will know. Omniscience would be a matter of choice.
Re: Does omnipotence necessitate omniscience?
rosborne979 wrote:neologist wrote:Must an all powerful God necessarily know the outcome of all his works?
Yes. Omnipotence necessitates Omniscience (IMO).
neologist wrote:Or is he free to use his power of foreknowledge selectively?
You cannot "select" to be impotent, and still be omnipotent.
The condition you suggest would be a paradox.
Maybe God is just that a PARADOX. Everything about his existence being a PARADOX. Intresting thought actually. God is a paradox I will have to think on that some that is very intresting.
So basic thesis, then, Neo, is that your god always wants what's best for us, but exercises selective foreknowledge so as to allow us free will (which inferentially suggests that if your god knew we would transgress, he would be obliged to interfere--leaving you with more problems about what omnipotence means). Then, when we transgress due to our perversity and the exercise of free will, this omnipotent, and loving, compassionate diety forgives us, and takes us to his bossom--of course, so that we can sing the silly old ego-maniacs praises for eternity.
Pretty damned thin, Boss, you're asking reasonable people to swallow a lot . . .
Forgiveness is not automatic, Set. Though it is freely given.
But you at least are one of the few who get what I am trying to say.
neologist wrote:duce wrote:Quote:One cannot be omnipotent if one is not also omniscient, and therein lies the paradox.
Thank you, I finally get it!
One cannot have two truths in contradiction. Therefore, one who is omnipotent must have the ability to choose the things he will know. Omniscience would be a matter of choice.
Well you guys are all missing the THREE traits applied to God.
Omnipotent = All Powerful - you got this one
Omniscience = All Knowing - you got this one
Omnipresence = Ever Present Or Present Everywhere - you missed this one.
neologist wrote:Forgiveness is not automatic, Set. Though it is freely given.
But you at least are one of the few who get what I am trying to say.
Yes, and i don't agree with a jot or tittle of it--as you well know.
(Pssst . . . that joker Scott has started to hang around--he likes to pummel Jehovah's witnesses [and Catholics] whenever he can, keep your eyes peeled.)
or one could open his mind to the possibility that we do not know everything God knows.
Jesse Duplantis said he asked God How 1/3 of heaven could be fooled an follow Lucifer. God told Jessie "that's easy, I taught him everything he knows" Jessie said "Do What now?" God said "He was of the highest rank he sought me and my power, I showed him a few tricks I had not shown the other angels, he wanted my power and he wanted to be worshiped. He thought I had showed him everything I know, but I had not--he went and showed some of the others the tricks and they were fooled and said oh wow, we never saw God do stuff like that, so Lucifer must have more power than God and they followed him. So listen carefully Jesse, I said I taught him everything he knows, not everything I know."
Just a thought..There are just to many gaps in evolution and science alone for me not to believe in a creator, then there are the testimonies of miracles, my own experience and well just stuff you atheists have given up on.
duce wrote:or one could open his mind to the possibility that we do not know everything God knows.
Jesse Duplantis said he asked God How 1/3 of heaven could be fooled an follow Lucifer. God told Jessie "that's easy, I taught him everything he knows" Jessie said "Do What now?" God said "He was of the highest rank he sought me and my power, I showed him a few tricks I had not shown the other angels, he wanted my power and he wanted to be worshiped. He thought I had showed him everything I know, but I had not--he went and showed some of the others the tricks and they were fooled and said oh wow, we never saw God do stuff like that, so Lucifer must have more power than God and they followed him. So listen carefully Jesse, I said I taught him everything he knows, not everything I know."
Just a thought..There are just to many gaps in evolution and science alone for me not to believe in a creator, then there are the testimonies of miracles, my own experience and well just stuff you atheists have given up on.
The angels who rebelled were not fooled, duce.
Setanta wrote:neologist wrote:The angels who rebelled were not fooled, duce.
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone . . .
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Interesting passage, Set.
Is that or your origination?
Setanta wrote:neologist wrote:The angels who rebelled were not fooled, duce.
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone . . .
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
'Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss...
Cool boss
@Scott777ab,
neologist wrote:duce wrote:Quote:One cannot be omnipotent if one is not also omniscient, and therein lies the paradox.
Thank you, I finally get it!
One cannot have two truths in contradiction. Therefore, one who is omnipotent must have the ability to choose the things he will know. Omniscience would be a matter of choice.
Scott777ab wrote:Well you guys are all missing the THREE traits applied to God.Omnipotent = All Powerful - you got this one
OK
Scott777ab wrote:Omniscience = All Knowing - you got this one
Not hardly
Scott777ab wrote:Omnipresence = Ever Present Or Present Everywhere - you missed this one.
Not true. He does not need to be physically present to know what is gong on. Does Higgs Boson explain this? Maybe. I won't try to say.
