Only For The Deepest Thinkers., Determinism, Fate, Divinity

Welcome to A2K.

Hawkins is a dualist and philosophically a "naive realist". A much more intricate view of "existence" can be found in the non-dualist systems described by Capra (et al) in which the "self" is an epiphenomenon of "cognition", which is aspect of the general life process. Simplistic concepts of determinism are transcended by the non-linear mathematics of systems theory. There is still room for "spirituality" but not of "the ego" or by evoking "a deity".

Regards fresco ( an atheist with spiritual leanings :wink: )

Hmm.. the title might imply that we all assume something about ourselves by posting here... :wink:






I agree it is tricky, but I believe we are dealing with determinism in a sense.

Nature determines most things for us, be it through a created symmetry or just as chaotic ripples.

The glitch of free will is a result of us forgetting that we are a part of nature.

Nature determines (causality)
We are nature
We determine(It is not safe to assume that we are beyond the grasp of evolution)

This is the push and pull. Allowance through obedience. We cannot simply split an atom with a kitchen knife. To do it we must obey the nature of atoms and play by the rules.

So there is only one choice. Play by the rules or don't. Exist or don't. It is the bottom line of every problem of this nature.

So I believe in fate as realization of potential, and choices are numerous. But each time it boils down to "to be or not to be" in various contexts.

.....We see that in its existence, its attributes, and its lifetime, while hesitant among innumerable possibilities, that is, among truly numerous ways and aspects, each thing follows a well-ordered way in regard to its being in innumerable respects.

Its attributes also are given it in a particular way. All the attributes and states which it changes throughout its life are specified in the same fashion.

This means it is impelled on a wise way amid innumerable ways through the will of one who specifies, the choice of one who chooses, and the creation of a wise creator.He clothes it with well-ordered attributes and states.

Then it is taken out of isolation and made part of a compound body, and the possibilities increase, for they may be found in that body in thousands of ways. Whereas among those fruitless possibilities, it is given a particular, fruitful state, whereby important results and benefits are obtained from that body, and it is made to carry out important functions.

Then the body is made a component of another body. Again the possibilities increase, for it could exist in thousands of ways. Thus, it is given one state among those thousands of ways. And through that state it is made to perform important functions; and so on.

It progressively demonstrates more certainly the necessary existence of an All-Wise Planner. It makes known that it is being impelled by the command of an All-Knowing Commander.

Body within body, each has a function, a well-ordered duty, in all the compounds that one within the other themselves become components of larger compounds, and has relationships particular to each, in the same way that a soldier has a function and well-ordered duty in his squad, his company, his battalion, his regiment, his division, and his army, and a relationship particular to each of these sections, one within the other.

A cell from the pupil of your eye has a duty in your eye and a relationship with it, and has wise functions and duties in your head as a whole and a relationship with it.

If it confuses these the tiniest jot, the health and organization of the body will be spoilt. It has particular functions with regard to each of the veins, the sensory and motor nerves, and even the body as a whole, and wise relations with them.

That specified state has been given it within thousands of possibilities through the wisdom of an All-Wise Maker.

In just the same way, each of the creatures in the universe testifies to the Necessarily Existent One through the particular being, the wise form, the beneficial attributes given it among numerous possibilities.

So too when they enter compounds, those creatures proclaim their Maker with a different tongue in each compound.

Step by step till the greatest compound, through their relations, functions, and duties, they testify to the necessary existence, choice, and will of their All-Wise Maker.

Because the one who situates a thing in all the compounds while preserving its wise relations, must be the Creator of all the compounds. That is to say, it is as though one single thing testifies to Him with thousands of tongues.

Thus, from the point of view of contingency, the testimony to the existence of the Necessarily Existent One is as numerous, not as the number of beings in the universe, but as the attributes of beings and the compounds they form.

BSN 33.word 30.Window

Re: Only For The Deepest Thinkers., Determinism, Fate, Divin



Divine Determining is a sort of knowledge. Knowledge is dependent on the thing known. That is, it knows it as it is.

The thing known is not dependent on knowledge. That is, the principles of knowledge are not fundamental so that the knowledge directs the thing known with regard to its external existence.

Because the essence of the thing known and its external existence look to will and are based on power.

Also, pre-eternity is not the tip of a chain reaching into the past which should be considered the end point in the existence of things and a source of compulsion.

Rather, pre-eternity holds the past, the present, and the future all at once, looking at them from above like a mirror. In which case, it is not right to imagine an end to past time which stretches back within the sphere of contingency and call it pre-eternity, and to suppose that things enter that knowledge of pre-eternity in sequence, and that oneself is outside it; to reason thus is not right. Consider the following example in order to explain this mystery:

Suppose there is a mirror in your hand and the area to your right is the past and the area to your left, the future; the mirror only holds what is opposite it.

Then with a movement it holds both sides, but it cannot hold all of it. However low the mirror is held, less will appear in it, and the higher it rises, the area it encompasses expands, until it can hold both sides in their entirety simultaneously.

Whatever occurs in the areas reflected in the mirror in this position cannot be said to precede or follow one another, or to conform to or oppose one another.

Divine Determining is part of pre-eternal knowledge, and in the words of the Hadith, pre-eternal knowledge is "at an elevated station which from its lofty view-point encompasses everything that has been and will be from pre-eternity to post-eternity." We and our reasoning cannot be outside of it so we can be like a mirror to the area of the past.

26.word BSN

Good discussion of free will vs. determinism begins here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1731496#1731496

Crazy - Gnarles

I remember when, I remember, I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that phase.
Even your emotions had an echo
In so much space

And when you're out there
Without care,
Yeah, I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me crazy
Does that make me crazy
Does that make me crazy
Probably

And I hope that you are having the time of your life
But think twice, that's my only advice
Come on now, who do you, who do you, who do you, who do you think you are,
Ha ha ha bless your soul
You really think you're in control

Well, I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
Just like me

My heroes had the heart to lose their lives out on a limb
And all I remember is thinking, I want to be like them
Ever since I was little, ever since I was little it looked like fun
And it's no coincidence I've come
And I can die when I'm done

Maybe I'm crazy
Maybe you're crazy
Maybe we're crazy
Probably

bm

Jeremiah...

...most of this post does not interest me in the least...

...but one sentence damn near jumped off the page at me.

You wrote:



Interesting perspective....interesting wording.

Care to flesh this out a bit?

I agree that only an intelligent being could determine a path or fated future for you.

And there is an intelligent being. You.

I think it is quite possible that there are more layers to our mental processes than we are aware of, and that we ourselves unconciously determine our own fate.

I like to think of it as a ressonans of coherency. Unconcious desires that we move to fulfill. Desires we aren't always aware of until they are satisfied. This leaves the impression of a determined path.

And as for the 'realness' of this path, I'd say it is excactly as real as the ego that created it, wich should be sufficient...

I wasn't going to answer this thread but I somehow felt -- DESTINED!!! Of course, in a parrallel universe I did not answrer this post and I won't know what the responses to my answer would have been. In yet another existanece I did everything right and I am now married to Angelina Joile. Interesting.

Such an existanece in a parrallel universe with Angelina Joile might be beaufitul...

I don't know why I was forced to write that..

Perhaps in one dimension you even made a relevant observation or introduced a counterclaim... :wink:


But still, a good post. Maybe the guy married to Angelina had a silly thought about a thread on some forum, and that was his experience of you writing your post...

Perhaps Cyracuz. There are an infinite number of possibilities relating to the interconnectedness of all things. A physicist friend of mine explained to me once that everything that CAN happen DOES happen. Perhaps my marraige to Angelina is one of those things that CAN happen -- at least in my dreams!

Yes. It's just taking it's time about it.

So, if God's existence is possible does it now become a certainty?

If so, then the same is true of santa, the easterbunny, werewolves, dracula, witches.....

If so you can also safely state that god is gay.

Perhaps that's not one of the things that CAN happen.

NickFun,

I think you made an important observation.

To say that everything that can happen will happen is not to say that everything is possible.

Perhaps your physicist friend meant to explain that in an infinite world of infinite time...

...anything that can happen does happen.

The point being that if the odds against something happening are a gazillion bazillion to the power of a gazillion bazillion to one against it...

...in any infinite world of infinite time...

...that is equivalent to a sure thing!

That is one of the counter arguments I've used against the intelligent design/creationists. They argue that the chances of "all this" randomly happening are so great...intelligent design or a creator is needed to make sense of it. My counter argument is that if the REALITY is that the universe it infinite and eternal...those "chances are so great" are really peanuts. We really do not know about that "if."