xingu wrote:megamanXplosion wrote:Those who support the afterlife hypothesis have provided no knowledge so the fact that you consider me unknowledgable on the subject is not surprising. The best they have been able to do is argue from a culture or philosophical perspective and their entire hypothesis relies on anecdotal evidence, nothing of substance or worth in science.
You don't think NDE is valid because it is supported by anecdotal evidence. To say nothing exist except that which science can positively prove is nonsense. Science recognizes NDE. It is investigating it.
I did not say nothing exists except that which science can positively prove. What I said is that I have no reason to believe the accuracy of the hypotheses for things that haven't been positively proven. You are blatantly misrepresenting my position.
xingu wrote:
Tell me is this scientific evidence or is it another piece of anecdotal evidence that means nothing.
Quote:Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose latest book, Light and Death, includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead.
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You ever had an operation in which you were heavily sedated? I have; had two of them. When I came out I didn't remember anything. Yet here's a woman who came out of her body, watched what they were doing to her and accurately described it to her doctor.
What came out of her body? Does science know? No, they don't. Does that mean what happened to this woman didn't happen because science can't explain it? Does that mean this whole story must be discounted because science does not have the means to measure it? In your mind it does.
It is worse than anecdotal evidence. It is complete rubbish. The supposed OBE began 2 hours and 5 minutes before (8:45) they even started cooling her blood (10:50), which is 2 hours and 40 minutes before standstill. She supposedly had an OBE just five minutes after they placed the drape over her body. There is the specific doubt that she was not administered enough drugs. This happens to 20,000-40,000 patients a year in the United States alone. Furthermore, she had earplugs in her ears and supposedly recalled a conversation while having her OBE but Gerald Woerlee, a physician specialising in anesthesiology, notes that the earplugs only reduce the intensity of the sounds and doesn't totally block them. Pam made essentially 3 statements regarding visuals that could be tested. The first was the peculiar way her head was shaved but this is a garbage test because such things are usually told to the patient before the surgery. Second, she claimed to have seen a groove in the bone saw next to the blade but that is complete hogwash because the groove was on the opposite end of the saw. Third, that the bone saw used interchangable blades but this is easily explainable by the fact that bone saws are not much different in sound or use than a dental drill and she could've also heard about the things before the operation.
When one is critical of the details the story falls apart rather quickly. There is no evidence a spirit was floating above her body. That is wishful thinking at best. There is not enough evidence to even claim for certain she had an OBE. This is quite possibly the most misrepresented story in the "true believer" literature.
xingu wrote:Here's another story.
Dr. Bruce Greyson documented perhaps one of the most compelling examples of a person who had a NDE and observed events while outside of his body which were later verified by others. The only way that these events could have been observed by the experiencer was if in fact he was outside of his body. Al Sullivan was a 55 year old truck driver who was undergoing triple by-pass surgery when he had a powerful NDE that included an encounter with his deceased mother and brother-in-law, who told Al to go back to his to tell one of his neighbors that their son with lymphoma will be OK. Furthermore, during the NDE, Al accurately noticed that the surgeon operating on him was flapping his arms in an unusual fashion, with his hands in his armpits. When he came back to his body after the surgery was over, the surgeon was startled that Al could describe his own arm flapping, which was his idiosyncratic method of keeping his hands sterile.
Addressing the frequent rejoinder that such events can be accounted for as hallucinations, Dr. Greyson notes that if NDEs are hallucinations, then how is it that such incredibly accurate and verifiable information is resulting from the NDEs? People on drugs who have NDEs see fewer deceased relatives when they travel out of body. This suggests that people who do see relatives are clear-minded, not hallucinating. In some cases of children, they see dead relatives whom they had never met or seen pictures of. This begs the following question: How could they hallucinate accurately the visual images of someone they have never met? When assessing the surmounting data as a whole, Greyson said that the survival hypothesis is the most parsimonious explanation for the growing database of NDEs.
SOURCE
This is a case I actually was not familiar with. After searching Google for a good hour I still haven't learned anything more about. The vagueness of the account renders it fairly useless. The person said that he could see the doctor working over his opened chest. He also noted the doctor working on the leg. The fact that the doctor would be standing over the chest area is so vague as to be irrelevant and one cannot be certain whether Sullivan knew whether leg veins were used in heart surgeries (a fairly well-known fact.) The only claim that seems to be a unique one was of Dr. Takata's arm-flapping. However, Dr. Takata said that he points with his elbows because he didn't want his hands to touch anything before surgery and that seems to contradict the claim that the doctor was flapping his arms when the ribs had already been cracked open. Also, he was given 2 anesthetics before his supposed OBE happened but it was never noted by the doctor whether was conscious or not at that point in time. Overall I see nothing spectacular here.
xingu wrote:megamanXplosion wrote:In order for the afterlife hypothesis to have any chance of not being thrown in the recycling bin the spirit must be made of some substance. They have tried to detect it materialistically and energetically. According to the weight experiments the spirit cannot be made of matter. According to the infrared, ultraviolet, and electromagnetic detection experiments it also cannot be composed of energy. (It should be noted that mass is the result of gravity pushing down on stabilized forms of energy called matter, so all of them tested energy.) These facts tell us that the spirit, if it does exist, is immaterial. Or, in other words, "nothing of substance."
You believe because science with its present day tools and knowledge cannot detect the spirit it doesn't exist. But anecdotal evidence says it does. There is so much anecdotal evidence coming from people in the medical profession that it cannot be passed off as some brain fart. Sciences inability to detect the soul doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do you think in this day and age science has reached its pinnacle and can't achieve anything more?
I said that if it does exist it is immaterial. I did not state that it does not exist. You have, again, misrepresented my position.
xingu wrote:megemanXplosion wrote:And do you honestly believe the skeptics have ignored the stories? I do not. Furthermore, I have not ignored such stories either. Many years ago I was a Christian and I studied many of the different things that Christians are interested in. After I stepped away from Christianity I began searching for different religious beliefs that I felt were worth value. I read a few things about Buddhism but the only thing of value was the principles of Karma. I also studied various other things like out of body experiences, astral projection, theosophist materials like the Stanzas of Dzyan and The Secret Doctrine, etc. I am now an atheist because through my studies I have come to realize that there are way too many people in this world trying to deceive others. Practically all of the "genuine" out of body experience stories told by "believers" have way too many control problems that make them absolutely useless.
You became an atheist because in your quest to find a religion none of them measured up to your criteria. You believe every form of faith is based on deception. I find it strange an atheist telling me that NDE is meaningless because there is an absence of scientific evidence.
Faith is based on deception. You must deceive yourself to believe in something you do not know is true, that is self-deception. Furthermore, I said that most of them were useless in relation to scientific research, not completely meaningless. You have, again, misrepresented my position.
xingu wrote:Could you please present all the scientific evidence that proves there is no God? Can't can you. There is none.
Atheism is defined as a mere lack of belief in the existence of gods. There are essentially two kinds of atheism: positive and negative. Positive atheism is the position that one knows for certain that gods do not exist. It is called "positive" because a positive assertion is made. Negative atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief. Many agnostics fail to make the distinction that agnosticism is a philosophical position and not a theological one. (Most of them don't even know it is a philosophy, they just use the word so they aren't labeled as atheists.) I have not stated that I was either a positive or negative atheist so you are jumping to conclusions and misrepresenting atheism by using an overly-narrow definition.
xingu wrote:In the field of NDE science has done a lot to investigate it. They do so because they see it as a real phenomena that needs investigation.
Science tends to investigate everything that isn't completely known. There's nothing surprising there. You seem to be implying, however, that scientists are investigating it for the sole reason of trying to prove an afterlife or some transcendental plane of existence. Scientists usually do not jump to conclusions like you are apparently implying.
Quote:Can you present me anecdotal evidence of atheism? I hardly think you can.
I am an atheist. I have just presented anecdotal evidence of atheism. (I know what you meant but I felt like throwing a quick jab--no harm no foul.)
