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8 U.S. troops charged with murder.

 
 
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2006 07:01 am
What bothers me most is the lack of discipline among the US troops. Surely they must have been instructed to behave properly. Any one pound atrocity wipes out ten tons of goodwill and good deeds.
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It takes not only cruelty to do illegal and immoral deeds, but an astonishing stupidity. Their crime will create hundreds of new insurgents; that is not what they had in mind.
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I think that the idea of a 'Master Race' is floating around in their little moron brains and gives them permission to treat others with contempt. Very sad indeed.
...........................................
8 U.S. troops charged with murder.
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Seven U.S. Marines and a Navy corpsman were charged with murder Wednesday in the April killing of an Iraqi civilian near the town of Hamdaniya, Col. Stewart Navarre said at Camp Pendleton, California.
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The Associated Press obtained a copy of the charging document, which gives the following account:
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The troops were staking out an intersection looking for people placing explosives along the road. When no one came, Magincalda, Thomas, Pennington and Bacos stole a shovel and an AK-47 from a nearby home and went looking for an insurgent named Saleh Gowad.
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They couldn't find Gowad, so they went into a house belonging to Awad and kidnapped him. Magincalda, Thomas, Pennington and Bacos forced Awad to the ground, tied his feet and took him to their hideout and placed him in a hole.

Hutchins, Thomas and Shumate fired M-16 rifles at Awad while Jackson and Jodka fired M-249 automatic weapons, killing him.
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Bacos then fired the AK-47 into the air to expend some shell casings. Magincalda collected the casings and put them by the body, the document said. Pennington cleaned prints off the AK-47 and put it in Awad's hands.
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Hutchins, the top-ranking Marine, told his men to make false statements and on April 28 submitted "a false written report regarding the factors and circumstances related to Awad's death," according to the document.
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/hamdaniya/index.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 675 • Replies: 15
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SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 08:07 am
Re: 8 U.S. troops charged with murder.
detano inipo wrote:
What bothers me most is the lack of discipline among the US troops. Surely they must have been instructed to behave properly. Any one pound atrocity wipes out ten tons of goodwill and good deeds.
.
It takes not only cruelty to do illegal and immoral deeds, but an astonishing stupidity. Their crime will create hundreds of new insurgents; that is not what they had in mind.
.
I think that the idea of a 'Master Race' is floating around in their little moron brains and gives them permission to treat others with contempt. Very sad indeed.


The Canadian soldiers responsible for the alleged atrocities in Somalia were probably "instructed to behave properly", so are you also condemning the entire Canadian military as "lacking in discipline" for the actions of a few?

Was "the idea of a 'Master Race' also "floating around in their little moron brains, giving them permission to treat others with contempt"?

By execution-style killings and torturing a teenager to death, is Canada now responsible for "creating hundreds of new insurgents" in Somalia?

What I find "astonishingly stupid" is your willingness to act as judge and jury in a case where the men charged are "innocent until proven guilty".
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 03:57 pm
The Canadian soldiers responsible for the alleged atrocities in Somalia were probably "instructed to behave properly", so are you also condemning the entire Canadian military as "lacking in discipline" for the actions of a few?
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I am condeming the morons in the Canadian army and in the US army. They smeared the good name of Canada in peace keeping and the US occupation troops. Nobody is talking about the entire military. (Nice smoke screen though).
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Was "the idea of a 'Master Race' also "floating around in their little moron brains, giving them permission to treat others with contempt"?
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By execution-style killings and torturing a teenager to death, is Canada now responsible for "creating hundreds of new insurgents" in Somalia?
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The Somalia effort did not last long enough to create insurgents; nothing of value there.
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What I find "astonishingly stupid" is your willingness to act as judge and jury in a case where the men charged are "innocent until proven guilty".
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I am neither judge nor jury, just musing about the efforts of the many and the bad behaviour of the few. You are desperately trying keep the noble US troops clean as a whistle. How innocent are the idiots of Abu Ghraib?
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Your personal attack shows that you don't have much of a case. Get used to it, there are monsters in every army.
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 04:40 pm
detano inipo wrote:
I am condeming the morons in the Canadian army and in the US army. They smeared the good name of Canada in peace keeping and the US occupation troops. Nobody is talking about the entire military. (Nice smoke screen though).


No "smoke screen". You did not refer to "some" US troops, but implicated the entire military. Now you're backtracking.

detano inipo wrote:
The Somalia effort did not last long enough to create insurgents; nothing of value there.


I would imagine execution style murders and torturing a teenager to death would make for some long memories among some folks. Are you excusing those "atrocities" simply because you left rather quickly?

I notice you took a pass on the question about the "Master Race" idea for Canadian soldiers. I guess they're exempt.

detano inipo wrote:
I am neither judge nor jury, just musing about the efforts of the many and the bad behaviour of the few. You are desperately trying keep the noble US troops clean as a whistle. How innocent are the idiots of Abu Ghraib?


No, you are only now mentioning "the few". Go back and read your original post. You have decided these men are guilty before they've even been tried or given the benefit of a defense.

I'm not desperate about anything beyond thinking each and every person accused deserves a fair trial. Those guilty at Abu Ghraib have been punished, but your ilk and the MSM will continue to harp on it until the end of time.

detano inipo wrote:
Your personal attack shows that you don't have much of a case. Get used to it, there are monsters in every army.


I don't have "much of a case"? Am I on trial here? That there are "monsters in every army" is exactly my point, including the Canadian Army, and I don't have to "get used to it". The United States military is the best of the best of the best. There has been no war at any time nor any place in history that has not seen its share of the undisciplined few.

Even then, these men deserve better than being tried in the court of public opinion.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 07:39 pm
I am condemning the morons in the Canadian army.......
..................and you ask me why I excuse those atrocities.
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I cannot argue with someone who twists everything to his view.
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Read the original post and see that I am talking common sense, not anti-American at all. If you can't stand the thought that there are rotten apples in your wonderful army, I cannot help you.
You have not forgotten the terrible scandal in the Canadian army, but are upset that people still bring up Abu Ghraib.
If you are a supporter of Bush, I feel sorry for you. Read a few (American) articles about the behaviour of your troops, it might help understand the situation.
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Other than that you seem to be a nice enough chap.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 07:59 pm
Actually, the U.S. Army IS a wonderful organization and pretty unique in its efforts to enforce high standards and a code of behavior far above that expected in other nation's military services. When a member of the U.S. military violates any provisions of the UCMJ, they are tried before a Courts Martial and if convicted, face harsh penalties. BTW, for all practical purposes the defendant in a Courts Martial does not have all the same rights and privileges afforded ordinary citizens of the United States.

The "judge" and "jurors" are all active military personnel, and they are very unforgiving of behavior that doesn't meet their own high standards. Personally, I would much rather face a charge of first degree murder in a a civilian court than be Court Martialed for insubordination to a superior officer.
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 08:05 pm
I do understand the situation. It's you who made the sweeping generalization about US troops in your original post:

Quote:
What bothers me most is the lack of discipline among the US troops.


Notice the omission of the words "some US troops", or "a few US troops".

Then you go on to further slander with:

Quote:
Their crime will create hundreds of new insurgents;


Their crime? They've been tried and found guilty and convicted by you? Does your country not have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty?

Read a few (American) articles about the behavior of my troops? It's quite obvious that you've read more than a few and that you believe everything you read.

Very sad indeed.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 08:40 pm
SierraSong wrote:
Very sad indeed.

I'd say US marines kidnapping and cold-bloodedly murdering a random guy and trying to frame him for his own death is a lot sadder, but I guess we all have our priorities. You can only work yourself up about so many things, I understand..

SierraSong wrote:
Their crime? They've been tried and found guilty and convicted by you? Does your country not have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty?

Are you so concerned about the presumption of innocence when it comes to combatants who are accused of killing Americans too? Like, say, the ones in Guantanamo?
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 09:19 pm
nimh wrote:
I'd say US marines kidnapping and cold-bloodedly murdering a random guy and trying to frame him for his own death is a lot sadder, but I guess we all have our priorities. You can only work yourself up about so many things, I understand..


It looks like the verdict is already in on this one. The trial will just be for show. Rolling Eyes

nimh wrote:
Are you so concerned about the presumption of innocence when it comes to combatants who are accused of killing Americans too? Like, say, the ones in Guantanamo?


Those whiney asswipes that hide behind women and children and dress in women's clothing? The ones that we've tried to release, but some human rights group has barred them being sent home because they'd most likely be tortured (for real) and killed? Those asswipes?

Quote:
THE SAVAGES
A barbaric enemy disqualified from the Geneva Conventions.

The Pentagon yesterday announced the names of seven Marines and a Navy corpsman charged with the April 26 kidnapping and murder of a 52-year-old Iraqi man in the town of Hamdania. The accusations are grave and, if proved, will almost certainly lead to severe sentences. We suspect no parallel process is taking place among Iraqi insurgents for the weekend murders near Yusufiya of U.S. soldiers Thomas L. Tucker and Kristian Menchaca.

That's a distinction worth pondering the next time you hear Iraq war critics carp at the U.S. refusal to apply Geneva Convention privileges to enemy combatants. The Convention extends those privileges to combatants who abide by the laws it sets for war, including the treatment of prisoners.

Combatants who fail to obey those laws--by not wearing distinctive military insignia or targeting civilians--are not entitled to its privileges. If they were, the very purpose of the Convention would be rendered a nonsense. And this is why the U.S. has refused Geneva privileges to the enemy combatants at Guantanamo, which we hope is an argument heeded by the Supreme Court as it decides the Hamdan case.

Especially so given the kinds of combatants the U.S. and the rest of the civilized world now face in Iraq. Privates Tucker and Menchaca were not simply ambushed, taken prisoner and killed. "The torture was something unnatural," said Major General Abdul Azziz Mohammed Jassim of Iraq's Defense Ministry, hinting at the state of the soldiers' remains. The corpses were so mutilated that they could be positively identified only through DNA testing.

Here, then, is the enemy we face in Iraq: not nationalists or extremists or even fanatics, but something like a band of real-life Hannibal Lecters for whom human slaughter is both business and religious fulfillment. Following the killing, an Internet statement said to be from the Mujahadeen Shura Council praised Abu Hamza al-Muhajir--who is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's successor as head of Al Qaeda in Iraq--with "the implementation of the sentence." Note the legalistic pretensions: This is the kind of "justice" Iraqis could expect should the insurgents come to power. And it is the enemy that might well come to power if the U.S. left Iraq prematurely, as many Senate Democrats urged yesterday.

No wonder so many Iraqis are risking their lives by joining the military and the police force to defend themselves against their would-be masters, a point that's too often forgotten by critics of the war. Thus, following the slaughter of Tucker and Menchaca, Representative John Murtha issued a statement, notably short on grief, insinuating that Iraqis are a nation of conniving killers.

"I continue to be concerned with the fact that our military men and women fighting in Iraq often tell me they do not know who the enemy is," said the Pennsylvania Democrat, who favors immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. "They do not know whom they can trust. . . . One day the Iraqis are smiling and waving at them on the streets; the next day the same people are throwing grenades at them."

Mr. Murtha might have checked his facts before issuing this generalized slur. According to the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count Web site (http://icasualties.org/oif/), in 2005 there were 3,510 Iraqi military and police fatalities, almost all at the hands of terrorists. That's four times the number of U.S. servicemen killed that year, and it gives the lie to the notion that Iraqis are doing little in their own defense while Coalition forces do all the heavy lifting.

Meantime, the U.S. military continues to examine allegations that Marines killed 24 civilians in the town of Haditha last November. Pentagon investigators have also uncovered evidence of detainee abuse by U.S. Special Forces in early 2004--just as the Army was the first to disclose the prison abuses at Abu Ghraib.

For some, all this is just more evidence of inveterate U.S. barbarity or the criminal abuses made possible by Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales. In fact, it testifies to a U.S. military and executive branch willing to investigate, disclose and prosecute errant military behavior, whatever the military or political price. That's something Mr. Murtha and his fellow-travelers in Congress and the media might not recognize. But a majority of Iraqis do, which is why, in the battle against the killers of Privates Tucker and Menchaca, they line up to fight on our side.


HollandGirl: Your mindset makes your sig line entirely clear. Very sad indeed. Why don't you just do it?
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 09:54 pm
OhMyGod Close Those Canadian Prisons Immediately!!!


Ont. investigates allegations of torture, mistreatment of accused terrorists

Tue Jun 13, 12:20 PM EST



TORONTO (CP) - Ontario Correctional Services Minister Monte Kwinter says he's confident 17 accused terrorists are not being tortured or mistreated while in custody.



Lawyers for several of the accused complained yesterday that confining their clients in small cells with the lights on 24 hours a day amounts to cruel and unusual punishment.



They claimed the accused are awakened every half hour by guards at a provincial detention centre and are given only five minutes to eat meals, charges Kwinter flatly denies.



He says the prisoners get a half-hour to eat meals and insists no one goes in to wake them up, but admits regular patrols could disturb those he calls light sleepers.



Kwinter says the ministry will look into the accusations of mistreatment, but adds he's comfortable that guards are following normal procedures with the accused terrorists.



He admits those charged are not allowed to meet privately with their lawyers, but says that's because of a court order that they have no physical contact with anyone.



"We are satisfied that we treat all of our inmates humanely. We have protocols, and we make sure that no one is abused in any way," Kwinter said Tuesday.



"Notwithstanding that, we are certainly going to look into the allegations."



Two of the terror suspects are already serving prison sentences in Kingston, Ont., on weapons charges.



Fifteen others are housed at the Maplehurst Correctional Complex in Milton, Ont.



The 15 - including five male youth who cannot be identified - were rounded up by police June 2 in a co-ordinated sweep followed the next day by a news conference in which authorities displayed various items that they alleged were to be used in terrorist attacks.



The display included a computer, a gun, and a bag of ammonium nitrate - a commonly available fertilizer that was used to deadly ends in the Oklahoma City bombing.



Stunning allegations contained in a Crown synopsis, and shared with the media by defence lawyer outside the court last week, said that 25-year-old restaurant worker Steven Chand personally wanted to behead Prime Minister Stephen Harper.



While bail hearings for three of the suspects - who were youths when the crimes were allegedly committed and cannot be named - begin this Friday, any evidence presented will be banned from publication.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 03:29 am
SierraSong wrote:
nimh wrote:
I'd say US marines kidnapping and cold-bloodedly murdering a random guy and trying to frame him for his own death is a lot sadder, but I guess we all have our priorities. You can only work yourself up about so many things, I understand..


It looks like the verdict is already in on this one. The trial will just be for show. Rolling Eyes




Oh, Americans accused of stuff GET a trial?


Wow!


Sierrasong:

"Their crime? They've been tried and found guilty and convicted by you? Does your country not have a presumption of innocence until proven guilty?"

Thought that was the new American fashion...what is your cavil at it being applied to Americans?



Oh! Wait! It ISN'T being applied to Americans, is it?


That is just in your imagination and your phonily outraged rantings...they WILL have a fair hearing, won't they? However people may talk, they WILL, quite rightly, have their case heard by a duly set up and legal body...unlike the people you so shrilly condemn in your cut and paste. Where is YOUR "presumption of innocence" that you denounce and dare to whine about others not having.

Oh, idiot me, AMERICANS can rightfully imprison people forever with no access to the charges against them, or any kind of legal hearing and that's ok.

You and Detano are perfect bookends.....you as ridiculous in your one eyed nonsense and sweeping claims as he is in his.
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 06:38 am
And the pompous old windbag chimes in with but one relevant statement:

Quote:
Oh, idiot me


Thing's gonna have some sort of seizure if it keeps getting so worked up.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 06:44 am
SierraSong wrote:
And the pompous old windbag chimes in with but one relevant statement:

Quote:
Oh, idiot me


Thing's gonna have some sort of seizure if it keeps getting so worked up.


Having problems with being caught out, are you, bookend?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 06:48 am
Makes me wonder, What ever happened to JustGiggles.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 06:49 am
dyslexia wrote:
Makes me wonder, What ever happened to JustGiggles.


Choked?
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jun, 2006 08:35 am
dlowan wrote:
SierraSong wrote:
And the pompous old windbag chimes in with but one relevant statement:

Quote:
Oh, idiot me


Thing's gonna have some sort of seizure if it keeps getting so worked up.


Having problems with being caught out, are you, bookend?


Finished building your shrine to Zarqawi yet, Windbag?
0 Replies
 
 

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