Guantanamo suicides confirmed

Oraloy - 'secret prisons'? Do you have any sources to back that up? The reason I ask is that the EU's Solano said last month that there are no 'secret prisons'.

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BernardR wrote:

If the decision says that the USA must close Gitmo and repatriate the prisoners so be it. If the decision says that the USA must provide the same kind of trials for non-citizen terrorists that it provides for citizens, so be it.

I didn't think they were ruling on whether we have to close Guantanamo.

If they did make such a ruling, the executive branch would be correct to ignore the ruling.

And if they rule that we have to provide civilian trials to enemy soldiers, that would be similarly crackpot.

I don't anticipate such an outcome though. They come up with boneheaded rulings now and then, but overall the Supreme Court generally does a very good job at producing rulings that reflect what the law says.

A proper ruling from the Supreme Court would be to make the military tribunals into a fair trial process (perhaps by converting them into courts martial).

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

SierraSong wrote:
Go play your silly games elsewhere.

I don't think it's okay ask someone who's been on this site since the very beginning such - especially not be y rather fresh member.

Or did you only change your name have been here under a different before?

Thanks, Walter.

Ya know, I was thinking that Sierra might have been "someone" we've met before! :wink:

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

SierraSong wrote:
Go play your silly games elsewhere.

I don't think it's okay ask someone who's been on this site since the very beginning such - especially not be y rather fresh member.

Or did you only change your name have been here under a different before?

Are you the thread monitor? I didn't 'ask' anything.

No to the second question. Why, is that what you do?

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SierraSong wrote:

Are you the thread monitor? I didn't 'ask' anything.

No to the second question. Why, is that what you do?

You seem to have a rather loud mouth.

Obviously, you miss a lot, but not arrogance.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

SierraSong wrote:

Are you the thread monitor? I didn't 'ask' anything.

No to the second question. Why, is that what you do?

You seem to have a rather loud mouth.

Obviously, you miss a lot, but not arrogance.

And I have my opinion of you, as well.

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msolga wrote:

oralloy wrote:
"Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook.

Could you expand on that statement, oralloy?

Just what I already posted, that Guantanamo is not a CIA facility, and those links that describe the places that the CIA really does run.

msolga wrote:

I'm really interested in what you have to say because the information I posted came from a usually reliable source: The ABC - our national broadcaster in Oz.

I'm sure they accurately reported what the guy told him. The criticism is of the anti-war fanatic, not of the journalists.

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oralloy wrote:

msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook.

Could you expand on that statement, oralloy?

Just what I already posted, that Guantanamo is not a CIA facility, and those links that describe the places that the CIA really does run.

You still haven't answered my question, oralloy.

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SierraSong wrote:

And I have my opinion of you, as well.

You sure do, Sierra! You have opinions on so many things! Not much to back them up but prejudice, but lots & lots of opinions! :wink:

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SierraSong wrote:

Oraloy - 'secret prisons'? Do you have any sources to back that up?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HolidayTheme/story?id=1342154

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

SierraSong wrote:

The reason I ask is that the EU's Solano said last month that there are no 'secret prisons'.

Where do you think Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is being held?

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msolga wrote:

oralloy wrote:
msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook.

Could you expand on that statement, oralloy?

Just what I already posted, that Guantanamo is not a CIA facility, and those links that describe the places that the CIA really does run.

You still haven't answered my question, oralloy.

Well, I've pointed out that what he accuses of being a CIA laboratory, isn't even run by the CIA. And I've linked to reputable sources that describe places that really are run by the CIA, and the torture therein.

What kind of expansion are you looking for?

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oralloy wrote:

SierraSong wrote:
Oraloy - 'secret prisons'? Do you have any sources to back that up?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HolidayTheme/story?id=1342154

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

SierraSong wrote:
The reason I ask is that the EU's Solano said last month that there are no 'secret prisons'.

Where do you think Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is being held?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/02/terror/main1575470.shtml

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oralloy wrote:

msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook.

Could you expand on that statement, oralloy?

Just what I already posted, that Guantanamo is not a CIA facility, and those links that describe the places that the CIA really does run.

You still haven't answered my question, oralloy.

Well, I've pointed out that what he accuses of being a CIA laboratory, isn't even run by the CIA. And I've linked to reputable sources that describe places that really are run by the CIA, and the torture therein.

What kind of expansion are you looking for?

I'm asking for detailed information for your opinion that this man is a "liar & a kook". All I'm getting is your opinion.

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msolga wrote:

oralloy wrote:
msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
msolga wrote:
oralloy wrote:
"Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook.

Could you expand on that statement, oralloy?

Just what I already posted, that Guantanamo is not a CIA facility, and those links that describe the places that the CIA really does run.

You still haven't answered my question, oralloy.

Well, I've pointed out that what he accuses of being a CIA laboratory, isn't even run by the CIA. And I've linked to reputable sources that describe places that really are run by the CIA, and the torture therein.

What kind of expansion are you looking for?

I'm asking for detailed information for your opinion that this man is a "liar & a kook". All I'm getting is your opinion.

What I provided was a list of facts that are quite severely at odds with the nonsense that the guy was spewing. I don't see how "a list of facts" becomes "my opinion".

Is what was written in the news articles that I linked to also my opinion?

These anti-war kooks spew nonsense like this all the time. It is quite easy to spot them if you are familiar with the facts, because their nonsense never matches up with what the facts say.

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You have provided a number of links. Nothing else. Could you at least publish the sections of the links that support your stated opinion. Besides, just posting a link to a forum is pretty lazy. At least publish the text. (along with the link.)

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msolga wrote:

Could you at least publish the sections of the links that support your stated opinion.

It is my belief that I have already done that.

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OK, let's just leave it there, shall we? Rolling Eyes

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msolga, Orally is part of a group of political sociopaths. There is no right or wrong. If he has to deny information, he'll do it. If he has to call somebody a kook because that person is creditable, he'll do it. Whatever needs to be compromised to maintain the "party line" will be done because there is nothing there to compromise.

His kind (and it looks like maybe sierra song to) are examples of the personality required to ignore law and justice as something that is real or meaningfull. You can provide him with overwhelming amount of proof that he is wrong. To him it is only a matter by wich means to deny it.

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sociopathy definition

Sociopathy is chiefly characterized by something wrong with the person's conscience. They either don't have one, it's full of holes like Swiss cheese, or they are somehow able to completely neutralize or negate any sense of conscience or future time perspective. Sociopaths only care about fulfilling their own needs and desires - selfishness and egocentricity to the extreme. Everything and everybody else is mentally twisted around in their minds as objects to be used in fulfilling their own needs and desires. They often believe they are doing something good for society, or at least nothing that bad. The term "sociopath" is frequently used by psychologists and sociologists alike in referring to persons whose unsocialized character is due primarily to parental failures (usually fatherlessness) rather than an inherent feature of temperament.

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Amigo wrote:

msolga, orally is part of a group of political sociopaths.

A gratuitous and unhelpful insult. While I disagree with oralloy more often than not, he is someone you can exchange rational arguments with. And just because his notion of right and wrong is different from yours, that doesn't mean he has no such notion. May I suggest that you try disagreeing without being disagreeable for a change?

As to his factual assertions, oralloy is not denying that the CIA tortures people outside of Guantanamo Bay. In fact, he has cited news reports demonstrating that they do. I haven't seen him deny that people other than the CIA -- the US Marine Corps I suppose -- are torturing prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. All he is saying is that if a publication introduces someone as an expert, and he cannot distinguish between torture that's the CIA's responsibility and torture that is not, it is prudent not to trust this expert too much. He is either not an expert, or he's lying. Oralloy has a point here, even though he overstated it.

One valid counterargument against oralloy would be: If the US government mistreats people at Guantanamo Bay, does it matter which agency it delegates the mistreating to?

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That is not the counterargument this IS the argument (go back and see where it starts). It is to be understood that the torture at gitmo is under the direction of the CIA via the United States as it applys to the argument. Professor McCoy knows this, I know this, everybody knows this.

Orally begins by saying ""Professor" McCoy is a liar and a kook."

Followed by declairing Gitmo is not a product of the CIA wich you say is the counterargument.

Msolga asked Orally to defend his statment to test him. He fails to because he can't . He wants to discredit Professor McCoy because he doesn't like what he is saying even though it is the truth.

Orally and the CIA are the same in the way in that what is right and wrong in the argument are not important.

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Guantanamo suicides confirmed

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