Israeli Shell Goes Wrong in Gaza

I'm no expert either, and am not overly willing to blame Israel if they clearly weren't involved. But a missing sixth shell, witness accounts, head and upper body injuries, craters that match the craters left by the other shells, those are all pretty big holes the IDF's story. If they can iron those things out and can show definitively that it was a Palestinian munition, I'm perfectly willing to accept that it was Hamas. It just seems a bit unlikely that they were shelling in the area, on that beach and near it, can't find one of the shells, but know for a fact that they didn't hit the family in question. Also, one minute they say it was a Hamas land mine, and the next they say it was a rocket explosion. Am I naive in thinking that those two blasts wouldn't look anything alike, and that if it could be mistaken for a rocket explosion it could also have been an artillery shell?

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oralloy wrote:

I can't believe Hamas is being so shortsighted.

I figured Israel's plan to redraw their borders and make them permanent was going to happen anyway. But if Hamas, as the Palestinian government, goes to war against Israel, they're giving those new borders to Israel on a silver platter.

And that is not even considering what Israel might do militarily if Hamas attacks Israel while acting as a legitimate government.

Israel is going to do what it wants regardless of any "negotiations." They had already adamantly stated their bottom line in 2001 at Taba: they refuse the Palestinians' main issues, the Right of Return, the 1967 borders, and East Jerusalem. "Negotiations" would have only been a formality, something truly on a silver platter.

So, whether the Palestinians decide to "recognize" Israel or not, whether there is a return to the negotiating table or not, Israel will get exactly what it wants, on its terms, at the expense of what the Palestinians want, and their terms.

All that Hamas will do is give Israel yet another pretext for its militarily ham-handed "defense."

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Israeli shell or Hamas mine? Here's our paper this morning

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1796861,00.html

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InfraBlue wrote:

Israel is going to do what it wants regardless of any "negotiations."

That is because the Intifada killed the real negotiations.

InfraBlue wrote:

They had already adamantly stated their bottom line in 2001 at Taba: they refuse the Palestinians' main issues, the Right of Return, the 1967 borders, and East Jerusalem.

Balderdash!

The Taba offer gave them East Jerusalem, and borders that were quite close to 1967 borders.

And it would have let a limited amount (around 100,000) of Palestinians return to Israel.

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http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article994070.ece

The Indy says it was most probably a howitzer shell

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McTag wrote:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article994070.ece

The Indy says it was most probably a howitzer shell

I remember that through all the white phosphorus and napalm fuss the Independent would print the bogus charges along with the legitimate ones. So I am not sure that the claim is true just because they printed it.

However, even if it turns out to be Israeli, they were only shelling in self defense against Palestinian rocket attacks launched at Israeli civilians.

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oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Israel is going to do what it wants regardless of any "negotiations."

That is because the Intifada killed the real negotiations.

The negotiations were killed because Israel used the second Intifada as a pretext to halt further negotiations. By making negotiations contingent upon the acts of a small terrorist minority, Israel gave them and their actions legitimacy. It also served and continues to serve as a pretext for their "unilateral" approach to dealing with the Palestinians.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
They had already adamantly stated their bottom line in 2001 at Taba: they refuse the Palestinians' main issues, the Right of Return, the 1967 borders, and East Jerusalem.

Balderdash!

The Taba offer gave them East Jerusalem, and borders that were quite close to 1967 borders.

And it would have let a limited amount (around 100,000) of Palestinians return to Israel.

Hogwash!

The Taba offer didn't gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem. Taba gave them "Arab neighborhoods" in East Jerusalem, all the while Jewish neighborhoods were being developed therein.

The borders that Taba gave them cut deeply into the West Bank as Israel emphatically insisted upon keeping and expanding the major settlement areas therein.

The amount of Palestinians that the Taba offer would have let return to Israel was a token gesture.

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InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Israel is going to do what it wants regardless of any "negotiations."

That is because the Intifada killed the real negotiations.

The negotiations were killed because Israel used the second Intifada as a pretext to halt further negotiations. By making negotiations contingent upon the acts of a small terrorist minority, Israel gave them and their actions legitimacy. It also served and continues to serve as a pretext for their "unilateral" approach to dealing with the Palestinians.

Hardly a pretext. Don't expect the Israelis to negotiate while their civilians are being blown up by war criminals.

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
They had already adamantly stated their bottom line in 2001 at Taba: they refuse the Palestinians' main issues, the Right of Return, the 1967 borders, and East Jerusalem.

Balderdash!

The Taba offer gave them East Jerusalem, and borders that were quite close to 1967 borders.

And it would have let a limited amount (around 100,000) of Palestinians return to Israel.

Hogwash!

The Taba offer didn't gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem. Taba gave them "Arab neighborhoods" in East Jerusalem, all the while Jewish neighborhoods were being developed therein.

Same thing.

InfraBlue wrote:

The borders that Taba gave them cut deeply into the West Bank as Israel emphatically insisted upon keeping and expanding the major settlement areas therein.

The amount of Palestinians that the Taba offer would have let return to Israel was a token gesture.

No one expects the Israelis to give up the large settlements right on the border. And it did not cut all that deeply into the West Bank.

Here is the map of the Taba offer:

http://www.fmep.org/maps/map_data/redeployment/final_status_map_taba.gif

High resolution PDF:

http://www.fmep.org/maps/map_data/redeployment/final_status_map_taba.pdf

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Israeli Shell Goes Wrong in Gaza

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