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Buddhism Eschews Musical Talent?

 
 
Chumly
 
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 12:19 am
On the road to nirvana does the expression of art have to be exempted?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 763 • Replies: 14
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 12:21 am
Why would it? Because of ego?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 12:33 am
Can't call on me to be an expert, that's for sure, but I have been watching this here TV show, and it seems that to reach nirvana in this life, you basically must not desire, nor desire desire, nor have needs or wants, that's how you stop suffering and reach nirvana. I don't mean music or art which has as its goal the enhancement of Buddhism's goals.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 09:07 am
The only aspect of anything that is a hindrance on the road to nirvana is your attatchment to them.
Attatchment is the "evil" the buddha warned us about. And our way of understanding things is such that attatchments are inevitable. But ours is not the only way. Buddha and many others showed us that. So the object becomes to alter one's understanding so that you are capable of unconditional love.

Simple to understand really, but hard, very hard, to execute.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 11:49 am
So how could you be a musician and believe in Buddhism?
And why would anyone in their right mind want to give up such a thing for an empty promise?
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:11 pm
Because playing and writing music is about expressing oneself. It is the same process as being a teacher. Buddha was both a seeker of nirvana and a teacher.

Your remark bears witness of the very attatchments you need to shed to approach the experience of perfect understanding, wich is, basically, what nirvana is all about. It is said that anyone can reach this, regardless of the profession they are in, regardless wich path they chose, as long as they devote themselves to it totally.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:14 pm
You're avoiding the question because to reach nirvana in this life, you basically must not desire, nor desire desire, nor have needs or wants, that's how you stop suffering and thus you cannot be a musician.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:20 pm
I'm not avoiding the question. You're avoiding the answer.

Do you truly understand what you write?

For my part, I understand what you're saying, but it is not my experience. Perhaps being a musician can one day give me the experience that it must be shed before I can move on, but until that day, my music has not outgrown it's use.

And that is the whole clue. To shed everything cannot be done, because it you deny yourself what you desire, then this denial and how good you are at it will secretly become your new pride and attatchment. No, you must suffer your attatchments to the end, until you yourself see the wisdom of shedding them. Only then can you truly put something behind you.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:22 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
Do you truly understand what you write?
Yes and I would never give up Musicianship for the empty promise of Nirvana.
It's not a fair tradeoff.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:31 pm
I too enjoy musicianship, but I am continously learning things about the whole world from delving ever deeper into the art of playing instruments. To play music is like kung fu in more ways than one..

But remember that your current frame of mind might change, and besides, I've never, in all my (relatively few, im 27) years of playing and seeking seen the two as contradictory to eachother, but rather as complimenting eachother. Music can be a great tool for self knowledge.

I've never believed that the ascets followed the best path to nirvana, and as far as I can find, neither did the buddha.
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flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:40 pm
Chumly wrote:
You're avoiding the question because to reach nirvana in this life, you basically must not desire, nor desire desire, nor have needs or wants, that's how you stop suffering and thus you cannot be a musician.


As far as my understanding reaches, I would say this is false.
The Buddha did not teach that we should deny our desires.
Desires are natural. They will come up.
Ditto for needs and wants.

It's how we understand them and live with them.

I find this interesting. I was reading a story recently about Alan Ginsberg. Course, the man wrote a lot. Which is a form of expression, an art.
It may have been someone else. I'm not perfectly sure: however, it was definetly a Beat Poet who studied Zen.
After meditating, he told his Zen teacher he would write and write so many poems. He felt very creative.
The teacher said something to the effect "Don't waste your time on tidbits. Don't linger there! Pay attention to the source."

I can relate to that.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:48 pm
Musicianship (I would argue) can transcend desires, needs and wants. Unless you have played live lots you may not relate to what I refer to, but it is not getting closer to Nirvana, and it's much different than writing, much less formalized, and not requiring of direct language based thought processes.

Also from what I have read Buddhists do indeed believe you can achieve Nirvana in this very life by denying desires, needs and wants etc. etc., and there is a kid in India who clams this.
Quote:
Pilgrims flock to see 'Buddha boy' said to have fasted six months
By Thomas Bell in Bara District, Nepal
(Filed: 21/11/2005)

Thousands of pilgrims are pouring into the dense jungle of southern Nepal to worship a 15-year-old boy who has been hailed as a new Buddha.

Devotees claim that Ram Bomjon, who is silently meditating beneath a tree, has not eaten or drunk anything since he sat down at his chosen spot six months ago.


Ram Bomjon maintains his vigil in the shade of his pipal tree
Witnesses say they have seen light emanating from the teenager's forehead.

"It looks a bit like when you shine a torch through your hand," said Tek Bahadur Lama, a member of the committee responsible for dealing with the growing number of visitors from India and elsewhere in Nepal.

Photographs of Ram Bomjon, available for five rupees (4p) from his makeshift shrine, have become ubiquitous across the region. "Far and wide, it's the only topic of conversation," said Upendra Lamichami, a local journalist.

He said no allegation had yet emerged of Ram breaking his fast or moving, even to relieve himself.

Santa Raj Subedi, the chief government official in Bara district, appealed to the capital, Kathmandu, for assistance in dealing with the influx of visitors, and for a team of scients to examine the case.

Local doctors failed to reach a final conclusion, although they were allowed no closer than five yards from the boy mystic, declaring that they could confirm no more than that he was alive.

The popularity of the phenomenon is partly because it resembles an episode in the life of the historical Buddha, who was born 160 miles away around 543 BC. The Buddha achieved enlightenment when he meditated beneath a sacred pipal tree for 49 days.

Ram Bomjon is also sitting beneath a pipal tree, in the same posture as the Buddha is depicted, but his vigil has already taken longer.

Ram's mother, who is called Maya Devi, like the Buddha's mother, admits to anxiety, particularly at meal times. But she tells herself: "God took him to the forest and I have faith that God will feed him."

She said: "He's definitely got thinner. Early in the morning he looks sunken, like there's no blood in him, but as the sun rises he seems to get brighter and brighter."

The fervour increased last week when a snake is said to have bitten Ram, and a curtain was drawn around him.

After five days it was opened and he spoke. "Tell the people not to call me a Buddha. I don't have the Buddha's energy. I am at the level of rinpoche [lesser divinity].

"A snake bit me but I do not need treatment. I need six years of deep meditation."

Despite his protestations, "Buddha boy" is famous.

A thriving market has grown in the once pristine forest, supplying pilgrims with everything from chewing tobacco and bicycle repairs to incense and sacred amulets. The ground is covered in litter.

A fence was built around Ram's tree to prevent pilgrims prodding him, then a second, and now a third is planned, as well as a bus park, leaving Ram at the centre of an ever growing circle of rubbish.

Prakash Lamsal, a businessman said: "Some people are selling 2,500 rupees [£20] worth of tea a day.

"These lamas [monks] are going to build mansions out of this. If I wasn't a bit embarrassed I'd take a van down there and set up a stall."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/21/wbuddha21.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/11/21/ixportal.html
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 07:03 pm
Well, I'm a devote Buddhist and a painter. These are not exclusive states of being.

Buddhism is fundamentally not about reaching Nirvana. It is a prescription for overcoming the suffering that accompanies all sentient life. Buddhism identifies the symptoms of our malaise, describes the causes of suffering, and prescribes a means by which individuals may mitigate/conquer suffering.

Elimination of desire will not inoculate one against Smallpox, nor stop the aging process. Death remains inevitable and being Enlightened won't buy you an extra second. Desire and attachment are consequences of the phenomenal world of perception. To live in multiplicity knowing its illusory nature, brings the adept some consolation. To live one's life on the Middle Path is to escape the suffering associated with extremes and uncontrollable passions. The Way is long, winding and so difficult that one must hone their self-discipline continually.

Oh well .......... Pay attention.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 07:17 pm
Thanks Asherman,
Can you outline how Rebirth and the Law of karma integrate into the final result of Nirvana without giving up Musicianship?
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jun, 2006 01:45 pm
I'd imagine that it's the same as how Rebirth and the Law of karma integrate into the final result of Nirvana without giving up life.
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