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Typing Monkeys Don't Write Shakespeare

 
 
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 10:27 am
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 10:47 am
Interesting though that some primates can learn sign language. I believe if taught specifically they could type...heck most animals could learn something with the action/reward learning techniques.
Randomly though..umm..yeah, I really dont think that will happen...still..nice that somone thought to give it a try...now we all know better.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 10:53 am
Are gorillas using sign language really communicating with h
Are gorillas using sign language really communicating with humans?
28-Mar-2003
From Cecil Adam's The Straight Dope site
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030328.html

Dear Cecil:

What is the bottom line with Koko the gorilla's ability to learn sign language? I know she only communicates through her handler, who seems to engage in a great deal of subjective translation. I saw an excerpt in Harper's Magazine of a supposed Internet chat with Koko a few years ago that made me rather dubious that the gorilla was capable of any use of language. Nonetheless, there is a strong perception out there that Koko has learned to sign. What is the straight dope? --Fabian Braithwaite

Cecil replies:

Don't be too hard on Koko, Fabian. If you judged strictly from Internet chat, you'd have to question the linguistic abilities of many humans. (D00dz!) Scientists have debated for years whether gorillas really understand language or are just, you know, aping us. The consensus among animal researchers seems to be that they understand at some level, but are less adept at using language themselves. When I read transcripts of Koko's alleged conversations I often think: Jeez, a trained monkey could do better.

A couple obvious problems present themselves when one looks into this talking-ape business. The first, as you suggest, is that interpretation of the gorilla's conversation, if such it be, is left to the handler, who generally sees any improbable concatenation of signs as deeply meaningful. During the 1998 on-line chat you saw bits of in Harper's (the whole thing is at www.koko.org/world/talk_aol.html), for example, Koko, without being prompted or questioned, made the sign for nipple, which Francine Patterson, her trainer, interpreted as a rhyme for "people." (Patterson further claimed that this was a reference to the chat session's audience.) Even if you buy the idea that gorillas, who cannot speak, grasp the concept of rhyme, this sounds like wishful thinking. Similar examples abound: "lips" is supposedly Koko's word for woman, "foot" her word for man. Koko made a lot of signs, and sometimes expressed desires or other thoughts, but nothing in the transcript suggests a sustained conversation, even of the simple sort you might have with a toddler.

That brings us to the second problem. What constitutes language use? In 1979 Herbert Terrace of Columbia University published a skeptical account of his efforts to teach American Sign Language to a chimpanzee named Nim Chimpsky. Nim accomplished the elementary linguistic task of connecting a sign to a meaning, and could be taught to string signs together to express simple thoughts such as "give orange me give eat." But in Terrace's view Nim could not form new ideas by linking signs in ways he hadn't been taught--he didn't grasp syntax, in other words, arguably the essence of language. (A dog, after all, may understand that bringing his leash to his owner is a sign that he wants to go out, but nobody sees that as evidence of language use.)

Terrace's work was a major blow to talking-ape proponents. But their case started looking stronger in 1990, when researcher Emily Sue Savage-Rumbaugh of Georgia State University presented evidence of language development in a bonobo chimp named Kanzi. One of the more telling complaints made about gorillas like Koko who communicated via sign language was that they often babbled, producing long, apparently meaningless strings of signs. Their handlers would then pluck a few lucky hits from the noise and declare that communication had occurred. Savage-Rumbaugh got around this problem by teaching Kanzi to point to printed symbols on a keyboard, a less ambiguous approach. She claimed that the ape demonstrated a rough grasp of grammar using this system. What's more, when presented with 653 sentences making requests using novel word combinations, Kanzi responded correctly 72 percent of the time--supposedly comparable to what a human child can do at two and a half years old.

Today, from what I can tell, scientific opinion is divided along disciplinary lines. Many researchers who work primarily with animals accept or at least are receptive to the idea that apes can be taught a rudimentary form of language. Linguists, on the other hand, dismiss the whole thing as nonsense. Personally I'm happy to concede that the boundary between animal and human communication isn't as sharply drawn as we once thought. Animals (not just primates--check out Alex the talking African gray parrot sometime) can use language in limited ways. They can respond to simple questions on a narrow range of subjects; they can express basic thoughts and desires. I'll even buy the possibility that some are capable of employing elementary syntax. However, all this strikes me as the equivalent of teaching a computer to beat people at chess--a neat trick, but not one that challenges fundamental notions about human vs nonhuman abilities. I've seen nothing to persuade me that animals can use language as we do, that is, as a primary tool with which to acquire and transmit knowledge. I won't say such a thing is impossible. But in light of the muddled state of the debate so far, the first task is to decide what would constitute a fair test.

CECIL ADAMS
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:19 am
Scientific evidence will not change my views of the temporal nature of infinity!

Impossibility reigns!
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:42 am
Normal Mailer just whispered in my ear that the monkey/typewriter/shakespeare thing is off the mark. Give an infinite number of monkeys an infinite amount of time with an infinite number of typewriters and they will produce "On the Road..."
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 11:42 am
(and an infinite amount of benzedrine.)
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:15 pm
choas/infinity..well, if you've got that kind of time..go for it...and let me know

lol
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:16 pm
don't worry. we'll wake you when it's over.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:18 pm
Hey, patiodog--sounds like a dig against Kerouac. I protest!

I worshipped him when I was younger. Might find him a tad unreadable now, but still, I remain loyal to his memory. Though I do recall the nasty comment Capote made about his novels:

"That's not writing, that's typing."

Ouch!
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:24 pm
thanks patio...Ill need it
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patiodog
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:29 pm
(crap! it was capote! i meant capote! but i typed mailer! perhaps the rapid-fire typing does short-circuit the whole thinking thing -- which is why kerouac advocated it and capote hated it. the on-the-road/dharma-bums type stuff loses some of its luster when you realize he was wandering about so that he wouldn't have to pay for his kid, and a lot of the writing was done to appease editors. and a lot of that dreadful stuff where he's hung up on having been a young football stud in high school and college, and that he turned his back on his friends when the mccarthyites started sniffing around...

but definitely some shining diamonds of prose in there, 'specially in desolation angels, which opens up in our neck of the woods, d'art...)
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Dartagnan
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:43 pm
True re Desolation Angels, patiodog. And rumor has it, he might've tipped a few at the Blue Moon back then. But of course, who hasn't at one time or another?

I just read a review of a new book on the Zen of Kerouac and other Beats spending time in that forest-fire lookout station. I have it at home somewhere...
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oldandknew
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 12:58 pm
Eat your heart out Will, Tarzan is a coming next.

Read he news that the monkeys counldn't type


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3013959.stm
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 01:01 pm
With all due respect regarding this experiment (and leaving Kerouac out of the discussion for the moment):

If the premise is that monkeys in a room with typewriters with infinite time to do it will eventually type the works of Shakespeare, how does putting them in there for a short period of time prove anything?

Isn't the element of infinite time crucial to the whole question?
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 01:29 pm
You have a important point there D'Art

I was wondering the same thing however, Im also not into the whole leave them there for infinity and see what happens group either.
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 02:58 pm
Well, since we can't actually leave them there for an infinite amount of time, we need to find a situation which simulates said duration.

A waiting room stocked with nothing but Popular Mechanics and Redbook should suffice.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 03:03 pm
But "they pressed a lot of S's. . . ", D'artagnan. If the randomness is missing, it would seem to invalidate the statement, regardless of the time involved.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 03:04 pm
Not to split hairs, patiodog--How do you simulate infinite time?

Though I agree, a waiting room with Popular Mechanics and Redbook magazines might approximate that. As long as those magazines were out of date...
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patiodog
 
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Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 03:09 pm
Actually, a very old Popular Mechanics might be pretty interesting, though -- aside from the stimulating differences between the smell of new ink vs. the smell of aging paper -- the print date would probably be of little interest to most primates.

ha ir
ha ir
ha ir
ha ir
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 May, 2003 03:19 pm
The ads in an old Popular Mechanics might be a lot of fun, patiodog. Think of how different they'd be from modern ads. They'd have offers like:

"Be better in bed--your wife will sing your praises!"

"Tired of slaving away for someone else? Work at home!"

"Worried about credit card debt?"
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