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Tue 11 Apr, 2006 01:25 pm
Conscription had at times been defended under the mask of necessity. Is a national war a necessity? Is it right to force civilians to serve in a war that they do not think is worth fighting for?
A war is not a necessity. Defending one's country, however, is. (The present war in Iraq is an illegal exercise of executive power and has nothing to do with the question of conscription, as it has not been seriously suggested by the present administration that conscription might become necessary.)
If we accept the premise that a standing military force as a defense mechanism is a necessity (this may be argued, of course), then conscription is the only reasonable method for raising such a force. It should have nothing to do with whether or not the country is in a state of war, only with the perceived necessity of maintaining an armed force. It is, and should be, the duty and responsibility of every able-bodied citizen to aid in the defense, barring disabilities and/or ethical considerations e.g. a religious proscription to bearing arms. I am in favor of a peace time draft, a la most European countries.
I strongly distrust a professional mercenary force, which is what we have now. (It's been argued that we hire people to serve as police officers, but I don't think that that is a valid analogy inasmuch as the police, ideally, act only as arbitrators in civilian complaints.) A professional soldier does not necessarily have loyalty to his country or its citizens. He may have enlisted because it's a job he likes or because it's a job he is best suited for. His loyalty, in the end, is to his leaders and commanders. Julius Caesar was able to cross the Rubicon because the legions were behind him, not the Senate, not the people of Rome. I fear and distrust the kind of army we have today. I much prefer an army composed of people who'd rather be doing something else but happen to be doing their appointed stint of serving their country.
It depends on the relevance of importance given to the concept of individual and state. If one qualifies the state as more important then the rights and believes of it's citizens, conscription is not only right, it is laudable. Not only does it actively involve citizens with the state, it also serves as a tool for creating a harmonious society, in so far that it infuses people with a sense of unity. OF course, a large army in itself is an item of pride for many.
If one, however, ranks the needs of the individual higher then the state, conscription becomes a tool of oppression. Because it forces people who may not believe in war or violence, to go under arms and serve their state in the capacity of soldiers. Risking their lives for a purpose they don't believe in.
Deciding factors are the sentiments of nationalism and patriotism in any country. If these are high, most people will respond favorably to conscription. However, any war that is either protracted or involves a lot of senseless and/or brutal violence, will cause said sentiments to rapidly decline. See for instance World War I, with the senseless trenchwar, or Vietnam.
Last but not least, most countries would do well to remember that if they enforce conscription in order to start an offensive war, they are quite likely branded as aggressors and lose many important diplomatic ties.
As for my own personal opinion, I am markedly ambivalent. While on the one side, I recognize and respect the individuals right to refuse taking up arms, I also realize that there are times when such drastic measures are necessary to defend one's land from a horrible fate.
Regards,
Najmelliw
Good posts. I'm kinda ambivalent on this also. I think that if the civilians' lives or livelihood is under attack, then conscription is no problem.
Quote:I fear and distrust the kind of army we have today. I much prefer an army composed of people who'd rather be doing something else but happen to be doing their appointed stint of serving their country.
Only in a defensive war right?
Quote:His loyalty, in the end, is to his leaders and commanders.
That is most likely if the command of the military is decentralized or not under the supervision of a democratic government.
Here in Germany, we have conscription enshrined in Article 12.1 of the Basic Law, our constitution:
Quote:Article 12a [Compulsory military or alternative service]
(1) Men who have attained the age of eighteen may be required to serve in the Armed Forces, in the Federal Border Police, or in a civil defense organization.
(2) Any person who, on grounds of conscience, refuses to render military service involving the use of arms may be required to perform alternative service. The duration of alternative service shall not exceed that of military service. Details shall be regulated by a law, which shall not interfere with the freedom to make a decision in accordance with the dictates of conscience, and which shall also provide for the possibility of alternative service not connected with units of the Armed Forces or of the Federal Border Police.
(3) Persons liable to compulsory military service who are not called upon to render service pursuant to paragraph (1) or (2) of this Article may, when a state of defense is in effect, be assigned by or pursuant to a law to employment involving civilian services for defense purposes, including the protection of the civilian population; they may be assigned to public employment only for the purpose of discharging police functions or such other sovereign functions of public administration as can be discharged only by persons employed in the public service. The employment contemplated by the first sentence of this paragraph may include services within the Armed Forces, in the provision of military supplies, or with public administrative authorities; assignments to employment connected with supplying and servicing the civilian population shall be permissible only to meet their basic requirements or to guarantee their safety.
(4) If, during a state of defense, the need for civilian services in the civilian health system or in stationary military hospitals cannot be met on a voluntary basis, women between the ages of eighteen and fifty-five may be called upon to render such services by or pursuant to a law. Under no circumstances may they render service involving the use of arms.
(5) Prior to the existence of a state of defense, assignments under paragraph (3) of this Article may be made only if the requirements of paragraph (1) of Article 80a are met. In preparation for the provision of services under paragraph (3) of this Article that demand special knowledge or skills, participation in training courses may be required by or pursuant to a law. In this case the first sentence of this paragraph shall not apply.
(6) If, during a state of defense, the need for workers in the areas specified in the second sentence of paragraph (3) of this Article cannot be met on a voluntary basis, the right of German citizens to abandon their occupation or place of employment may be restricted by or pursuant to a law in order to meet this need. Prior to the existence of a state of defense, the first sentence of paragraph (5) of this Article shall apply mutatis mutandis.
(More info in Wiki's report
Conscription in Germany.)
Our armed forces ("Bundeswehr") themselves say about conscription:
Quote:Universal Conscription stands for the citizens' willingness to bear their share of the responsibility for protecting their community.
Source
I'd agreed with that when I was a conscript (and served even for the ultimate length: 18 months plus 18 months for [alarm] reserve exercises).
Nowadays, I'm not that sure anymore.
Some interesting links:
Timeline of of conscription (mandatory military enlistment) in the U.S
Conscription in other nations
Bibliography about conscription
(Just close the pop-up window first)
Walter, I believe Germany has the right idea in allowing conscientious objectors to perform "alternative service." The argument in favor of military conscription is independent (for me) of any considerations of war. Few, if any, countries are in a perpetual state of war. This, however, does not obviate the necessity for defense. And a proper defense involves more than carrying a gun.
L&M: I live in the USA and consider myself a good citizen, i.e. I vote and pay my taxes. You're absolutely right -- that the war in Iraq is an illegal exercise of executive power is my considered opinion, which I can back up with plenty of facts. As a "strict constructionist", I note that the US Constitution gives Congress the exclusive and sole power to commit the country to war. That Congress has chosen to relinquish this responsibility and empower the Chief Executive, as C-in-C, to commit US armed forces virtually at personal whim is, to me, reprehensible.
For your information, I have never implied at any time that the USA is not a sovereign country. So was Iraq at the time of its invasion. We no longer live in an early 20th Century world when a nearly universal war could begin over something as trivial as the assassination of an archduke. The USA may be a superpower -- no one is denying that -- but it still has to exist as a member of the community of sovereign nations.
At any rate, this is all beside the point of the discussion. I believe we were talking about conscription as a general topic, not the specifics of the current world situation. I would guess that you and I agree on the need for conscription. Let's stick to the subject.
LightandMagic,
War is, and always should be, a last resort, mainly because it hardly ever solves anything. There is no such thing as a succesful war, after all.
Actually, I am disinclined to allow any government to take hostile actions against any other government, unless it's as a response in kind.
If nations would more dilligently hold to the 'contrat social' that is for instance embodied in the UN, I'd reckon that standing armies or overt violence would no longer be necessary. However, since I realize government leaders with clear defined ambitious goals and an army behind their back to realize said goals, will not abide by restrictions set forth by organizations such as the UN, I sadly concur that this can never be the case.
As for Iraq, well, lets just say that Iraq and the USA have at best a checkered past, which makes legitimizing the current war there hard at best.
Najmelliw
Against conscription and pro a professional (only) force are e.g. the numbers of deserters:
Quote:In World War II there were some 40,000 deserters, more than half of whom were convicted. And during the Vietnam War, the Pentagon reported 550,000 incidents of desertion, including about 350,000 who were considered draft dodgers and resisters. Military police combed the U.S. to arrest them. About 60,000 fled to Canada.
The troops fighting now in Iraq were not drafted as most in Vietnam had been, and many of them signed up with gung-ho intentions. But some are finding the war experience too brutal to bear.
...
Between 2,500 and 3,000 of the 1.4 million Americans on active duty are absent without leave on any given day, military officials say. Many live quietly underground, staying with friends and family.
quoted from 'Chicago Tribune'. Monday April 17, 2006, page 1 & 4
online source
I well remember the flap that ensued during the first Gulf War, Operation Desert Storm. There was a sizeable number of enlistees who bridled at the sudden possibility of being sent into harm's way, especially Reservists. A lot of them had signed up just for the scholarship and student loan benefits and were now saying, "Hey, I didn't enlist just to get killed!"
So what should the price of freedom be?
Are we in America the only ones who should be entitled to freedom?
If we in America are entitled to freedom then we must be willing to fight the enemies of our freedom -- wherever they may reside.
You will believe what you want to believe, but Iraq is about freedom. The fact that there are small factions who will try to disrupt that quest for freedom does not negate the will of the majority of those people who do strive for freedom and liberty.
Sure, many of our boys are dying. But just as in WWI and WWII, we chose to fight on foreign shores to protect and further the freedom and liberty within our own shores.
Freedom and liberty is a God-given right. At least that is according to the Christian God. The problem is that not all religions agree with that perception.
The price of freedom and liberty is high whether it is just to defend America's freedom and liberty or to aid another people to have a chance at freedom and liberty.
Is Iraq and its people's quest for freedom and liberty worth the sacrifice of American lives? Yes, if we are trying to instill liberty and freedom into the world in order that ours may be preserved.
A Military Story-Don't Close Your Blinds
The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war.
My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.
My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He said "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"
"I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied.
"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."
Our son giggled and said "OK."
"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said.
"OK Dad, I'm pretending."
"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and pretend you see Saddam come out of his house with his wife, he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are screaming and crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and they are afraid of their father. You see all of this son.... what do you do?"
"Dad?"
"What do you do son?"
"I'd call the police, Dad."
"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then?"
"Dad.......... but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.
"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.
"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."
"Daddy...he kills them?"
"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.
"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry.
"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"
"What Daddy?"
"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in he window and laughs at you. WHAT DO
YOU DO?"
"Daddy..."
"WHAT DO YOU DO?"
Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I'd close the blinds, Daddy."
My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?"
"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help people who needs them...and they won't help.... You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it
by myself Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds.... so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."
I start to cry.
My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's questions and he says..."Son"
"Yes, Daddy."
"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door... "WHAT DO YOU DO?"
My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his small fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY HOUSE, DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs our son to his chest and hugs him tight, and says... "It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife, and his children and the old lady across the way. You have to do what's right, even if you! have to do it alone, before it's too late." my husband whispers.
THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen son, THAT is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity.
WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window so that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.
"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS..."
And all this has what do do with the question of conscription, Ethmer?
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