France helped Iraqis escape

Regarding the fact that the WMD was not found: the Amber Cabinet looted by Nazis from Peterhoff in the USSR has never been found after the war, but this does not mean that it never existed.

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steissd wrote:

France allegedly helped them escape justice.

You will hae to eplain what you mean by "justice". I always thought that it had something to do with international law, fairness and acting within commonly accepted principles.

First, remember that the US *supported* Saddam's ascent to power in spite of the fact we know his thuggish and murderous and undemocratic tendencies. We continued this support even when he used chemical weapons against Iran.

Second, remember there are thousands of graves in Iraq that contain people killed by US bombs. There are more graves a failed regime of sanctions that targeted the Iraqi people and denied them food and medicine.

Third, the US and its allies have often flouted or skirted international law. A primary cause of the problems in the middle east is the one-sided support of a country who maintains a repressive occupation that violates international law, at the same time it is pressuring other countries in the region for the same reason.

Fourth, the US is pretty much doing what it wants without regard for internation opinion or law, including imprisoning young people for long periods of time without charge, legal counsil or due process.

So please tell me, who is in a position to deliver the "justice" that France is allegdly helping them escape.

My country is in no position to provide "justice". Yours is not either.

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Isn't that why we have international courts? (oh yeah ... the US doesn't recognize such courts)

god, the is embarassing, if you think about it.

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steissd

I wonder that someone living in Israel is using the propaganda excuses of the Nazis, old and neo.

The Waffen-SS has been the most cruel armed force. Their still living former members are the greatest anti-semists known.

There have been not only photos and films of the amber chamber but thousands of people saw it.

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I do not know what made you think that I excuse Waffen SS, Mr. Hinteler. I just underlined that regardless of possession of paramilitary rank, both Eichmann and Himmler were rather civilian bureaucrats than combattant soldiers. I have never even made a hint that Waffen SS was not a criminal organization.

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E_brownp wrote:

Second, remember there are thousands of graves in Iraq that contain people killed by US bombs.
[...]
My country is in no position to provide "justice".

The Iraqi casualties refer to the fact of war; some of them pertain to collateral damage that is inevitable in course of military hostilities. None of them is a victim of deliberate mass murder of civilians.
Your country has won the war; this is the fact that cannot be denied. Therefore, it is entitled to prosecute the enemy's officials that were involved in crimes against humanity. The fact of the U.S. army being involved in killing of certain number of Iraqis in course of war, does not deprive the USA of such a right. Otherwise, the decisions of Nürnberg Tribunal should be considered illegitimate as well: it is a known fact that the armies of participant countries deliberately killed thousands of Germans, both military and civilian, in course of war. This is just a practice: the winner delivers justice; the representatives of other countries that suffered from Nazis were not invited to participate in work of Nürnberg Tribunal for a simple reason: they did not contribute enough in toppling the Hitler's regime. Therefore, I believe that the only countries that can provide justice to the officials of the late Iraqi regime are USA, UK and Australia.

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steissd

You quote the Nuremberg trials.

When you read the London Agreement of August 8th 1945

Quote:

AGREEMENT by the Government of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the Provisional Government of the FRENCH REPUBLIC, the Government of the UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND and the Government of the UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS for the Prosecution and Punishment of the MAJOR WAR CRIMINALS of the EUROPEAN AXIS

WHEREAS the United Nations have from time to time made declarations of their intention that War Criminals shall be brought to justice;

AND WHEREAS the Moscow Declaration of the 30th October 1943 on German atrocities in Occupied Europe stated that those German Officers and men and members of the Nazi Party who have been responsible for or have taken a consenting part in atrocities and crimes will be sent back to the countries in which their abominable deeds were done in order that they may be judged and punished according to the laws of these liberated countries and of the free Governments that will be created therein;

AND WHEREAS this Declaration was stated to be without prejudice to the case of major criminals whose offenses have no particular geographical location and who will be punished by the joint decision of the Governments of the Allies;

NOW THEREFORE the Government of the United States of America, the Provisional Government of the French Republic, the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (hereinafter called "the Signatories") acting in the interests of all the United Nations and by their representatives duly authorized thereto have concluded this Agreement.

you will notify that this court was instituted, because of there wasn't one similar before.
Therefore, the Signatories were acting on behalf of the United Nations.

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They were signed on behalf of the UN, but I failed to find Polish, Czech or Yugoslavian judges or prosecutors... These countries, surely, had grounds for claims against the Nazi leadership, but ... these were not them that won the war.

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steissd

Perhaps you better re-read the background of the London Agreement before answering.

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I was not referring to the low-rank officers, but to those that were tried in Nürnberg: Göring and Co.

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steissd wrote:

Your country has won the war; this is the fact that cannot be denied. Therefore, it is entitled to prosecute the enemy's officials that were involved in crimes against humanity. The fact of the U.S. army being involved in killing of certain number of Iraqis in course of war, does not deprive the USA of such a right.

Your reasoning scares me. The fact that a country proves itself to be militarily superior *shouldn't* mean that it gets to decide what "justice" means, especially if that means it only applies the rules of law and morality that benefit itself.

In the Iraq war, for example the US did do some things that seemed injust. I would include bombing a residential neighborhood in an assination attempt and rules of engagement that caused the massacre of a family at a roadblock. There are other examples as well. But, of course, these actions will never be questioned in any meaningful way.

What would your view of "justice" be had the Axis had prevailed in WWII? Would, for example, the firebombing of Dresden or the attack at Hiroshima suddenly become warcrimes? Could Germany had "justly" prosecuted these actions under your view?

Your point of view offends my sense that "justice" should somehow transcend the realities of military might.

Of course I may be overly idealistic. After all, In a country that has prevailed militarily, a war criminal can even be elected Prime Minister.

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http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/image_bushisms_small.jpg

Quote:

"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Sorry, I should have attributed that witticism.

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<coughs>

LMAO!

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France helped Iraqis escape

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