Revealed: victims of UK's cold war torture camp

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This is a surprise. I always thought that the Brits were correct. They treated their WW2 prisoners well.
We live and learn.
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Revealed: victims of UK's cold war torture camp
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Monday April 3, 2006
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Photographs of victims of a secret torture programme operated by British authorities during the early days of the cold war are published for the first time today after being concealed for almost 60 years.
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The pictures show men who had suffered months of starvation, sleep deprivation, beatings and extreme cold at one of a number of interrogation centres run by the War Office in postwar Germany.
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A few were starved or beaten to death, while British soldiers are alleged to have tortured some victims with thumb screws and shin screws recovered from a gestapo prison. The men in the photographs are not Nazis, however, but suspected communists, arrested in 1946 because they were thought to support the Soviet Union, an ally 18 months earlier.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1745489,00.html

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Just as a sidenote, these were POST WW2 prisoners, not that this makes it any less repugnant. Your post seems to suggest that this maltreatment extended to the POW's that were taken DURING the war. I've not seen any evidence to suggest that these POW's were treated in any way contrary to the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

As a backdrop to all this, the allies had just liberated Europe from one of the most savage regimes in history. The full horror of the death camps had been discovered "on the ground" by allied troops and there was a massive clean up operation going on to hunt down missing Nazis, who had disappeared at the end of the war.
There was absolutely no sympathy towards anyone who happened to be German at that time.

Couple this with god knows how many people being homeless or stateless at that particular time, with millions trying to make their way home adding to the chaos.
Germany was bankrupt, Britain was not much better, nor were several other European countries.

Alongside all of this, Stalin was showing his true colours by making it quite clear that he had his eyes on the whole of Europe, his troops were thought to be on full alert and ready to sweep through to take what they wanted. Tensions were high, to say the least.

The call went out for information. This intelligence was required immediately. The threat was REAL and the danger great.

Put all of this into the equation, and ask battle hardened troops, out for revenge, to carry out "interrogations"and it is not surprising that this sort of thing went on.

A shameful episode in Europe's history.

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' This is a surprise. I always thought that the Brits were correct. They treated their WW2 prisoners well.
We live and learn.'
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It is a fact that during the war, German prisoners were treated well. The Germans did the same with British and US prisoners. It had something to do with fear of reprisals.
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I feel sorry for the German 'communist' prisoners. They must have had a tough enough time in Nazi Germany.
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It is known that torture does not bring results.

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

Just as a sidenote, these were POST WW2 prisoners, not that this makes it any less repugnant. Your post seems to suggest that this maltreatment extended to the POW's that were taken DURING the war. I've not seen any evidence to suggest that these POW's were treated in any way contrary to the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

Most males (over 14) were in some kind POW's in those days in Germany, at least for a short time.

Quote:

One of the men photographed, Gerhard Menzel, 23, a student, was arrested by British intelligence officers in Hamburg in June 1946. He had fallen under suspicion because he was believed to have travelled to the British-controlled zone of Germany from Omsk in Siberia, where he had been a prisoner of war.

He wasn't a POW but arrested by the British.

Quote:

Mr Menzel "was only skin and bones," the doctor wrote. "He could neither walk nor stand up without assistance, and could only speak with difficulty because his tongue and lips were swollen and broken open.

"It was impossible to take his body temperature because it was not higher than 35 degrees Celsius and the thermometer only starts at 35."

Right, LE, this doesn't directly he (no POW) was treated in any way contrary to the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

Copied/pasted from the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1745662,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1745711,00.html

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This is reported in many European papers today - I like the way the French daily "Libération" reports today about this, because they've added an interview with an historian.
She explains that concentration and torture camps can be seen as a symbol of the 20th century and were to be the "appropriate thing" in many countries (including France in 1944/45).

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1230/zwischenablage026yy.th.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9631/zwischenablage027re.th.jpg

(To enlarge, click on the thumbnails.)

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

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A shameful episode in Europe's history.

Our history. British history. Done in the name of the British people by British government agents who were of our parents and grandparents generation. This was AFTER the war. This was torture of prisoners who's allegiance had been to our ALLY in the fight against Nazi Germany. I dont think you can make any excuses for this LordE, nor widen the blame by saying it was Europe's fault.

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The French are just as guilty when it comes to torture. They misbehaved in Algeria.
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"We all had the same reaction. We tried not to see it. We were shocked, but powerless. At first, revolted; by the end, indifferent. It has to be said, it's shameful." These are the words of a French soldier, Raymond Dumas, who witnessed torture during France's war in Algeria in the 1950s. They could, however, be the words of torturers everywhere and in every era.
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Torture helped the French army win the Battle of Algiers; it also helped the country lose the Algerian War.
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http://hnn.us/articles/5458.html
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The British have behaved quite well. There will always be some dreadful people who love cruelty. They are the exception.
I remember the German prisoner who became a British hero. The Queen even shook his hand.
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Bert Trautmann - the goalie who played with a broken neck - gets an OBE.
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In 1956 Trautmann captured the public's imagination when he broke his neck during the FA Cup Final but completed the remaining 15 minutes of the game in goal. His heroics ensured Manchester City won the final 3-1. Trautmann subsequently became the first foreign "Footballer of the Year".
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http://www.britbot.de/en/news/items/041029.htm

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detano inipo wrote:

The French are just as guilty when it comes to torture. They misbehaved in Algeria.

No-one denied that - the article just focused on past WWII camps and referred to the French camps in 1944/5.

I'm not sure, why you mention Trautmann here.

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I'm trying to show that the German POWs were treated well in Britain.
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I am also trying to show that the French are not clean as a whistle. I have not heard about French torture camps in 1944/45.

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In 1944/5 there has been a "concentration camp", similar to the Britsih in Germany, in Rivesaltes (Pyrénées-Orientales/ Languedoc - Roussillon):
for German POW, French collaborateurs, Spanish communists etc

From 1945 until 1954 the Russians used the KZ Buchenwald (Weimar) for the very same reason.

My father was for a bit more than three years as a POW in France, btw.
(And a friend's father spend nearly eight years from 1945 until late 1954 in the Russian KZ.)

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Quote:

I remember the German prisoner who became a British hero. The Queen even shook his hand.

Queen Elizabeth is German. And her husbands a Greek.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

And her husbands a Greek.

And his mother was German as well: Princess Alice of Battenberg [ :wink: ].

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Walter, was your father's camp in Normandy? I spent 2 1/2 years in Etretat and other camps, searching mines and digging out duds (blindgaenger).
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I went back to visit Etretat twice, it is a beautiful town.

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My father was at first "acting family doctor" in Douai for a couple of months, than in Cherbour, where he became later the "leading surgeon of the interior department, navy hospital, prisoner of war" (348 beds).

I've been around there (including Etretat) a couple of times, even - as a navy officer, in the hôpital maritime. Only then I noticed that my father had been there - because he could exactly describe the various rooms. And only after his death we found the documents, teszigying his work there (signed by American and French officers).

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Is there any country at war that is imagined not to have employed some type of torture?

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Lash wrote:

Is there any country at war that is imagined not to have employed some type of torture?

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So far I have not heard about Canada using torture.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:
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A shameful episode in Europe's history.
Our history. British history. Done in the name of the British people by British government agents who were of our parents and grandparents generation. This was AFTER the war. This was torture of prisoners who's allegiance had been to our ALLY in the fight against Nazi Germany. I dont think you can make any excuses for this LordE, nor widen the blame by saying it was Europe's fault.

T'wasn't my intention to widen the blame, Steve. I tried to make the point that the bad stuff happened on both sides. I obviously didn't word it very well.

For years we have had bastards in the intelligence services, who play by their own rules. I think they first learnt their trade during the Nazi roundup, and carried it on through the cold war.

But at that precise time and place, before we judge them with a present day mindset, I feel we have to take into account what everyone had been through and witnessed during the previous six or so years. How close we came to invasion and defeat, the horror of the death camps and the desire for revenge, the hatred for the Nazis, the very real danger that western Europe faced from a ruthless and ambitious Russia.
A bloody melting pot, really.

The British government should have come clean about this stuff a long time ago, though....and apologised.

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

The British government should have come clean about this stuff a long time ago, though....and apologised.

Correct. But saying sorry is the hardest thing to do...

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Even Canada is guilty.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-723/conflict_war/somalia/

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:
Just as a sidenote, these were POST WW2 prisoners, not that this makes it any less repugnant. Your post seems to suggest that this maltreatment extended to the POW's that were taken DURING the war. I've not seen any evidence to suggest that these POW's were treated in any way contrary to the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

Most males (over 14) were in some kind POW's in those days in Germany, at least for a short time.

Quote:
One of the men photographed, Gerhard Menzel, 23, a student, was arrested by British intelligence officers in Hamburg in June 1946. He had fallen under suspicion because he was believed to have travelled to the British-controlled zone of Germany from Omsk in Siberia, where he had been a prisoner of war.

He wasn't a POW but arrested by the British.

Quote:
Mr Menzel "was only skin and bones," the doctor wrote. "He could neither walk nor stand up without assistance, and could only speak with difficulty because his tongue and lips were swollen and broken open.

"It was impossible to take his body temperature because it was not higher than 35 degrees Celsius and the thermometer only starts at 35."

Right, LE, this doesn't directly he (no POW) was treated in any way contrary to the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

I'm not sure whether you are having a pop at me or not, Walter.

My point was, in the above quote of mine, that detano stated that these atrocities happened to WW2 prisoners. These were NOT WW2 prisoners (those captured during the duration of the war) and, as far as I am aware, WW2 prisoners were treated satisfactorily.
These people were detained POST WW2, and were possibly the very first victims of what was to be known as the cold war.

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Revealed: victims of UK's cold war torture camp

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