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The inherent flaw in Islam ?

 
 
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:34 am
Quote:
Zealots among the Muslims ... and the Christians

By DAVID WATERS
Scripps Howard News Service
15-MAR-06


I wish every Christian in America could have heard what I heard the other night.

Two of the nation's most learned and respected religious scholars were talking about Islam and civic responsibility, two topics that don't always seem to go together.

Honestly, don't you sometimes wonder _ even the most open-minded and big-hearted among you _ if there's some inherent flaw in Islam?

Something in the Koran that turns devoted believers into homicidal maniacs? Something about "Allah" that turns faithful followers of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, into terrorists and suicide bombers and angry mobs?

"There are a lot of crazy Muslims out there," one of the scholars acknowledged the other night.

"Wacky" was the word the other scholar used.

Such comments might have seemed inflammatory, except that they came from Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Imam Zaid Shakir, both American-born converts to Islam, now two of the West's most influential Islamic scholars.

Before 9/11, both men were outspoken critics of American policy. Since then, both men have become two of the strongest and sanest Islamic voices for peace and civilized discourse.

Yusuf, 45, who grew up as Mark Hanson, a Greek Orthodox kid in suburban California, has become an adviser to President Bush.

"We Muslims have lost theologically sound understanding of our own teaching," Yusuf told The Guardian during the recent cartoon controversy. "Islam has been hijacked by a discourse of anger and the rhetoric of rage. We have lost our bearings because we have lost our theology."

Shakir, 49, who grew up Baptist in inner-city Atlanta, served four years in the Air Force before his conversion.

"If we Muslims are going to contribute to changing how Islam and our Prophet are viewed in the West, we are going to have to change what we ourselves are doing to contribute to the caricaturing of Islam," Shakir wrote last month in a widely distributed essay.

"That change can only be affected by sound knowledge coupled with exalted practice, and reviving the lofty ethical ideal of our beloved Prophet."

Both men spoke extensively about the ethics of Islam the other night at the program sponsored by Muslims in Memphis.

They said the Prophet Muhammad would abhor the violence that is committed in the name of Allah. They called on true believers to defend the faith with love, compassion and humility, not anger, hatred and violence.

"The disgraceful behavior of many Muslims is a failure of adherence to the faith, a failure to live up to the true ideals of Islam," Yusuf said.

They referred often to the sayings of Muhammad, which include: Love for humanity what you love for yourself.

That's how most Muslims here and around the world practice their faith. There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. Nearly all of them are good, decent, kind, sane, faithful and law-abiding folks.

Yes, there are some crazy, wacky Muslims out there. The world has known more than a few crazy, wacky Christians, too. So-called Christians who sicced dogs on black children or lynched black men, who burned crosses or fellow Christians at the stake, who massacred Jews or annihilated native civilizations.

The inherent flaw in Islam is the same inherent flaw in all religions.

Divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings.

source


Would a person convert to Islam or any other religion, if they honestly believed it was 'flawed' ?

Why would an Imam/Islamic scholar (convert) go around preaching that their religion is flawed ?

So whats going on here, why have they converted ?

Would you convert to an imperfect religion ?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,471 • Replies: 25
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:48 am
I think they're saying it isn't inherently flawed any more than other religions. And the common flaw of all religions is that "divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings. "
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:52 am
"Would you convert to an imperfect religion ?"


Find me one that isn't to contrast it with, and I may find your question meaningful.

What you are really probably asking is would one convert from one flawed religion to another...

My answer would be that, were I of a mind to embrace a religion, I would probably embrace the one I considered least flawed.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:00 am
Quote:
I think they're saying it isn't inherently flawed any more than other religions. And the common flaw of all religions is that "divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings. "


That is an oxymoron.

Its like saying all religions are flawed, therefore i will pick the lesser flawed religion.

anology :

I have a choice of three brand new automobile's, all three have mechanical problems, but i have got to spend my $45,000 to buy one.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:07 am
That's not exactly it. It's more like, I have to buy a house. The inherent flaw of all of them is that they're made of wood and will deteriorate if they are not kept up. Still, I buy the one I like the best, and try to keep it up so it doesn't deteriorate.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:07 am
Quote:
Find me one that isn't to contrast...


Why do you think we have Atheists, living among us ?
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 06:11 am
FreeDuck wrote:
That's not exactly it. It's more like, I have to buy a house. The inherent flaw of all of them is that they're made of wood and will deteriorate if they are not kept up. Still, I buy the one I like the best, and try to keep it up so it doesn't deteriorate.


Wrong, you have a choice NOT to buy it.

It's quite simple, people will NOT buy anything defective.

ever tried to sell a table with no legs ?

Actually its even worse, they have not only bought something defective, but they are going around telling every body, that they have bought a table with no legs. Laughing
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 07:40 am
Obviously people buy defective things all the time, religion included. Buying one defective thing over another doesn't really mean anything.

You can choose not to buy a house. You can rent an apartment, be homeless, or live in tents and hotel rooms if you like. That works for some people. Other people really like to buy houses.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 07:55 am
freedom4free wrote:
Quote:
I think they're saying it isn't inherently flawed any more than other religions. And the common flaw of all religions is that "divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings. "


That is an oxymoron.

Its like saying all religions are flawed, therefore i will pick the lesser flawed religion.

anology :

I have a choice of three brand new automobile's, all three have mechanical problems, but i have got to spend my $45,000 to buy one.


Actually, it's more like:

There are three houses. One has a flaw in its insulating, one has a flaw in its plumbing, one has a flaw in its central heating system. You then choose the one with what you consider to be the lesser flaw.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:06 am
I think the analogy follows more along the lines of - I have to buy one of three houses:
One is very nice, but a little small and it's in a rough neighborhood.
One is just the right size and in a good neighborhood, but it has a lot of design features that I don't like and that will be very expensive to change.
And the last one is a death trap - the floors are rottingl; the roof leaks; there's a gas leak that caused an explosion at one time; the foundation is sinking; the doors are all warped; and, the neighbors don't like my kind of people and have promised to kill any of us that move in....
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:20 am
Quote:
There are three houses. One has a flaw in its insulating, one has a flaw in its plumbing, one has a flaw in its central heating system. You then choose the one with what you consider to be the lesser flaw.


Or choose none at all and just live under the great blue sky.

I don't think they thought Islam was flawed when they converted. It was, they just didn't know it. David Waters says it at the end of the article:
Quote:
The inherent flaw in Islam is the same inherent flaw in all religions. Divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings.


That has hardly been the case with the worship of gods throughout the ages. The god of one sect is the devil of some other.

The other day on NPR's Speaking of Faith, a program I enjoy listening to because I like to hear how people think about belief, one person was bemoaning the Middle East Conflict [Israel-Palestine, not the other mess(es)] saying that the problem was "Both sides see the land as their own holy ground. It's sacred to both and both desire exclusivity for their own sacred land." Nice and right too, but suppose NEITHER made the claim of sacred? Suppose there was no divine instruction urging both sides on?

Suppose we had to make committments and claims based solely on our own merits and needs as people? Couldn't humanity solve it's problems if gods stopped interfering?


Joe(Peace. Still possible)Nation
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:26 am
All religions are made up of imperfect people. I think it's important to differentiate between imperfect actions that some believers take in the name of their faith that go against the tenents of their faith (such as so-called Christians participating in the Spanish Inquisition), and between actual faults in the tenents of the religion.

I believe that any reading of the New Testement will show that the Spanish inquisition goes against the teachings of Christianity.

I invite all A2Kers not to take anyone's word for it, but to read the Qu'ran for themselves to see just exactly what Islam is.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:43 am
Why find a religion and just settle into it with all its flaws?
Why not just "keep on seeking" (Matthew 7:7) until you find the truth?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:44 am
neologist wrote:
Why find a religion and just settle into it with all its flaws?
Why not just "keep on seeking" (Matthew 7:7) until you find the truth?


Because then you'd either end up as an atheist or an agnostic, because you would never find "the truth".
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:44 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
There are three houses. One has a flaw in its insulating, one has a flaw in its plumbing, one has a flaw in its central heating system. You then choose the one with what you consider to be the lesser flaw.


Or choose none at all and just live under the great blue sky.

I don't think they thought Islam was flawed when they converted. It was, they just didn't know it. David Waters says it at the end of the article:
Quote:
The inherent flaw in Islam is the same inherent flaw in all religions. Divine instructions must be interpreted and applied by mortal beings.


That has hardly been the case with the worship of gods throughout the ages. The god of one sect is the devil of some other.

The other day on NPR's Speaking of Faith, a program I enjoy listening to because I like to hear how people think about belief, one person was bemoaning the Middle East Conflict [Israel-Palestine, not the other mess(es)] saying that the problem was "Both sides see the land as their own holy ground. It's sacred to both and both desire exclusivity for their own sacred land." Nice and right too, but suppose NEITHER made the claim of sacred? Suppose there was no divine instruction urging both sides on?

Suppose we had to make committments and claims based solely on our own merits and needs as people? Couldn't humanity solve it's problems if gods stopped interfering?


Joe(Peace. Still possible)Nation

I also enjoy listening to Speaking of Faith.
Often merely to irritate myself, however. Rolling Eyes
The person was factually incorrect. Arabs do not see Israel as "holy ground," apart from seeing everywhere they've ever been as "holy ground," such as Spain and Russia. The Arab / Muslim obsessions of some individuals calling anyplace they ever lived "holy ground" does not make it a doctrine of faith.
And, unfortunately (from my point of view), most Israelis do not view where they live as "holy ground" either. It is simply their country as is any other country to its citizens.

The conflict is not based on religion. It is based on an Arab / Islamic set of tribal mores that vary from tribe to tribe and clan to clan and sect to sect.
If the Arab Muslims truly saw Israel as "holy ground," it would be a very different conflict.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 09:36 am
People make of religion what they want. Whether the Bible or Koran you can extract hate or love. It's your choice.

The Koran is a book full of intolerance. It's so easy to find hate there.

Go to this site;

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

It points out the different features of the Koran. On the right hand side click on "Good Stuff". It will highlight all the good things said in the Koran.

Now click on "Intolerance". Notice how much more intolerance there is compared to the good stuff. If you have a book, claimed to be the word of God, that preaches hate and intolerance toward all those who believe different than don't be so surprised if some of its followers practice hate and intolerance. In their mind they're doing what their God tells them to do.

Here is a site for an online Koran;

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Mar, 2006 07:51 am
50,000 errors in the Bible is just too much
SIMPLE REASONS.....HOLY QURAAN 4:82

Quote:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah(God), they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."


A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it's authenticity and "prove it wrong" occurs in the 4th chapter. And quiet honestly, I was surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states:

Quote:
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah(God), they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."


This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim or people who NEVER believe in ISLAM.Basically, it invites you and me to find a mistake in the HOLY QURAN. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man's personality.

But Now, did u know that the Bible contains 50,000 errors,

Read here

50,000 Errors in the Bible

and an example

This is just one of the examples

I wait to hear from you all.

This is just the first step in knowing the Truth

Discover Islam
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Mar, 2006 09:03 am
And so to the Koran is full of contradictions and errors.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

http://atheism.about.com/od/islamandthekora/

http://www.deism.com/thinksam25.htm

Here is a story of how Muslims persecute other religions.

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/NEWS/news.aspx?story=1338

Did you know it was the Christians that introduced Muhammad to monotheism?

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-causes.htm

You boys had better learn you religions faults before you cast any stones.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 11:42 am
My favorite part is where this websiteRead about Islam lists all the rights of women in the Koran and then concludes by saying in part
Quote:
There does exist a gap between the rights of women outlined in the Qur'an, and the prevalent reality in the Muslim world.


That is an understatement of astronomical proportions.

Joe(peace be on you, but grasp a little reality on the way)Nation
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Mar, 2006 05:30 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
My favorite part is where this websiteRead about Islam lists all the rights of women in the Koran and then concludes by saying in part
Quote:
There does exist a gap between the rights of women outlined in the Qur'an, and the prevalent reality in the Muslim world.


That is an understatement of astronomical proportions.

Joe(peace be on you, but grasp a little reality on the way)Nation

Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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