ALMİGHTY GOD CREATED SATAN AND EVILS..

God no doubt realized the possibility of rebellion from the beginning of creation.

But, he could not truthfully offer us free will if he were not able to selectively apply his power of foreknowledge vis a vis our choices.

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yes, a willfully ignorant god. peculiar.

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Were he under any necessity, he would not be 'he who causes to become'.

If, by necessity, he knew all things in advance, creation would be pointless.

As Erasmus aptly proposed: "Let us shun any hypothesis that makes man a puppet and God a tyrant crueler than any in history."

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Something....

''Q u e s t i o n : Although evil spirits do not interfere in the universe in any way in regard to creation, and through His mercy and favour Almighty God takes the part of the people of truth, and the attractive beauties and virtues of truth and reality strengthen and encourage the people of truth, and the repulsive ugliness of misguidance revolts the people of misguidance, what is the reason for Satan's party very often gaining the upper hand; what is the wisdom in it? And what is the reason for the people of truth always seeking refuge with God from Satan's evil?

T h e A n s w e r : The wisdom and purpose is this: for the most part, misguidance and evil are negative, destructive, and pertain to non-existence. While in the great majority of cases, guidance and good are positive, constructive, repairing, and pertain to existence. Everyone knows that one man can destroy in one day a building made by twenty men in twenty days. Yes, although human life continues through the existence of all the basic members and conditions of life, and is particular to the All-Glorious Creator's power, through severing a member, a tyrant may make the person manifest death, which is non-being in relation to life. The saying "Destruction is easy" has for this reason become proverbial.

It is because of this that the people of misguidance sometimes triumph over the people of truth who are most powerful with what is in reality a weak force. But the people of truth possess a stronghold so unassaillable that when they take refuge in it, those fearsome enemies cannot draw close; they can do nothing. If they cause some temporary harm, according to the verse,

And the end is [best] for the righteous,2

everlasting reward and profit make up for the damage. ''BSN

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neologist wrote:

Were he under any necessity, he would not be 'he who causes to become'.

Why not? Very ambiguous.

Quote:

If, by necessity, he knew all things in advance, creation would be pointless.

Bald assertions just aren't like you Neo. Tired or something?

Quote:

As Erasmus aptly proposed: "Let us shun any hypothesis that makes man a puppet and God a tyrant crueler than any in history."

Exegesis aside, you are still left with a god that is, by necessity, willfully ignorant.
Necessary because if he is not, freewill ceases to exist.

I find the whole premise to be a head scratcher.

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See u later..

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I have discussed with Neo my view that a 'dumbed down' god is a logical fallacy if the premise of an all powerful, all knowing god is a given.

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Doktor S wrote:

neologist wrote:
Were he under any necessity, he would not be 'he who causes to become'.

Why not? Very ambiguous.

Quote:

If, by necessity, he knew all things in advance, creation would be pointless.

Bald assertions just aren't like you Neo. Tired or something?

Quote:

As Erasmus aptly proposed: "Let us shun any hypothesis that makes man a puppet and God a tyrant crueler than any in history."

Exegesis aside, you are still left with a god that is, by necessity, willfully ignorant.
Necessary because if he is not, freewill ceases to exist.

I find the whole premise to be a head scratcher.

Tired? I suppose. But what does 'been there, done that' mean anyway?

As far as God being under necessity, his selective application of foreknowledge is by choice.

There has to be a difference.

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Chumly wrote:

I have discussed with Neo my view that a 'dumbed down' god is a logical fallacy if the premise of an all powerful, all knowing god is a given.

Dumbed down:

Those are your words.

If you refrain from reading your daughter's diary, are you dumb?

Or, are you respectful of her privacy?

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You can't be an all powerful, all knowing omnipotent parent and not know the contents of the diary.

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You assume that because it is possible God must do it - or because it happened, God must have done it?

You can be powerful enough to read the diary and loving enough to refrain. The concepts are not self limiting or somehow mutually exclusive.

Can you imagine someone strong enough to tear a phone book? What would you think if he tore up every phone book?

You have enough coffee in the pot to fill the cup. Do you keep pouring until the tablecloth is soaked?

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No I don't assume that because it is possible God must do it, but because it happened, I do assume God must have known about it, else he could not be all knowing. In fact god must know of all possibilities and permutations.

Don't confuse knowledge with actions Neo!

Applying anthropomorphic allegories to an all-knowing all-powerful omnipotent god is not a very good way to make an argument about how such a god could not know something (the diary) but and yet at the same time know everything.

If I may expand on this point somewhat to show a related logical fallacy; I'll point out that an all-knowing all-powerful omnipotent god does not even have free will:

If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined.

In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path.

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Hi Neo.

Quote:

As far as God being under necessity, his selective application of foreknowledge is by choice.

Could freewill exist if he did not make this particular choice?
If not, would that not imply god is 'bound' in a sense to make this choice if his creation is to function as intended?

And a third question..would you say 'willfull ignorance' is an apropriate term for this choice?
If not, why?

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Chumly wrote:

. . .Applying anthropomorphic allegories to an all-knowing all-powerful omnipotent god is not a very good way to make an argument about how such a god could not know something (the diary) but and yet at the same time know everything.

But this is exactly what you are doing here:

Chumly wrote:

If I may expand on this point somewhat to show a related logical fallacy; I'll point out that an all-knowing all-powerful omnipotent god does not even have free will:

If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined.

In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path.

Omniscient is a word which you are wont to apply with your 'anthropomorphic' definition. It doesn't apply to the God who told Moses in Exodus 3: 14 "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE", indicating that he will take whatever form, do whatever is needed, to accomplish his purpose.

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Doktor S wrote:

Hi Neo.

Quote:

As far as God being under necessity, his selective application of foreknowledge is by choice.

Could freewill exist if he did not make this particular choice?

I don't think so. We are now in the realm of speculation.

Doktor S wrote:

If not, would that not imply god is 'bound' in a sense to make this choice if his creation is to function as intended?

If you love someone, are you not, in a sense, 'bound' to act in such a way as to bring out the best in that person?

Doktor S wrote:

And a third question..would you say 'willfull ignorance' is an apropriate term for this choice?
If not, why?

Not comfortable with that wording, though in essence, it seems true enough. Selective foreknowledge seems more appropriate.

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Chumly wrote:

. . .Applying anthropomorphic allegories to an all-knowing all-powerful omnipotent god is not a very good way to make an argument about how such a god could not know something (the diary) but and yet at the same time know everything.

neologist wrote:

But this is exactly what you are doing here:

Whelp you got me! I get casual with my semantics and look what happens! I intended the "you" not in the literalist sense but in the colloquial sense. I repaired my text just for your reading pleasure:

"If god is all-knowing, god would know his future actions, what choices he will make, and he could not change them otherwise his knowledge would be wrong, and he wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all its actions are predetermined."

"In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - its entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow its predestined path."

Now what say you to the above and to your anthropomorphic allegories as per diaries and phonebooks?

neologist wrote:

Omniscient is a word which you are wont to apply with your 'anthropomorphic' definition. It doesn't apply to the God who told Moses in Exodus 3: 14 "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE", indicating that he will take whatever form, do whatever is needed, to accomplish his purpose.

Irrelative of your interpretation of Exodus 3:14, it does not permit you to logically rationalize logical fallacies.

Also, I suugest the quote you make reference to refers to god as unnamable, not to any powers god might have. It was while Moses was putting up his arguments with God for not obeying him that god revealed who he is in his personal name. God's chosen people were living with Egyptians. The ten plagues would be a contest of the gods of Egypt and god. Therefore, Moses asked god, "which god shall I tell them sent me?" What is your name? (3:13). God replied to Moses, "I am who I am".

So we have:

1) The need to differentiate god's perfect knowledge from god's distinct actions.

2) God cannot not know something, as such "selective foreknowledge" would be a logical fallacy.

3) God does not have free will - god's entire future is set out and he has no choice but to follow its predestined path. A predestined path is incongruent with "selective foreknowledge".

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neologist wrote:

kev;

If god were to have created evil, it must have been within him in the first place.

This is not the God I worship.

It is, instead, the self acquired quality of the true God's adversary.

God created angels as a full goodness , satan as a full badness, Animals as a nötr. Problem in man, because has a limitless capacity for everything also more than genies. So human decides what he/she will be himself.

If you say God didn't create satan.. You get limit to powerty of God. Also God can perish satan and his friends. World is examination place. Satan said to God I will persuade human being.. God said I permit you to the last day. But it is impossible for you to persuade my real servants. Than satan started to his duty.

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Hi Neo,

Quote:

I don't think so. We are now in the realm of speculation.

Not really, just logic. If god did not make the 'choice' to be selectively ignorant, freewill could not exist. Omniscience precludes freewill.

Quote:

Not comfortable with that wording, though in essence, it seems true enough. Selective foreknowledge seems more appropriate.

I could understand why you might find 'selective foreknowledge' a more comfortable terminology..

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We believe that God create everthing ? Is ıt so difficult for him to create a man with freewill ? Also there r not so much creatures who acts with free will. Humanbeing is one of freewill owner bcs of examination

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ALMİGHTY GOD CREATED SATAN AND EVILS..

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ALMİGHTY GOD CREATED SATAN AND EVILS..