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There is nothing ethical about egoism

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jan, 2006 11:52 pm
Ooooh, I like that, JL - original thought?
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:00 am
Nice, JLN.

Kind of like watching the movie of your life play?

"There I was again, standing outside of myself...watching me do the silly things I do..."
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:00 am
It reflects my limited understanding of zen psychology.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:01 am
I have less understanding than you.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:02 am
EM, here we go again. You can't have less understanding than I. I know virtually nothing.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:04 am
Well, lets sort of reverse it:

Is there anything ethical about the destruction or dissolution of ego?

Somehow the word "ethical" seems a bit misplaced here. What am I looking for? Enlightenment?

Okay: Is there anything enlightening about egoism or non-egoism? Perhaps, as JLN hints, its rather irrelevant. Another tranparent thing to see through.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
JLNobody wrote:
I know virtually nothing.


Wow.

I always suspected you were the master.

When you know nothing, please let us know, so we can all bring flowers to your place at your feet.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:14 am
extra medium wrote:
JLNobody wrote:
I know virtually nothing.


Wow.

I always suspected you were the master.

When you know nothing, please let us know, so we can all bring flowers to your place at your feet.


Sounds like angst to me. Misplaced, at that.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:17 am
Well, EM, there isn't really anything to know. Seeing how the mind works is more like eating well in order to be healthy, not smarter. To me, "enlightenment" is simply enjoying one's life at each moment in part because you're not f*cking it up with ideals, ideas, formulas, doctrines, morals, etc. You accept what's happening just as it is.
I'm too old for this; I'm off to bed. Nightie night.
Oh, and yes about the flowers.
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flushd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:21 am
I like your last post, JL. Night oldtimer. Smile

Reading through this thread, all I could think to say is:
There is nothing healthy about a screwed up sense of egotism.
Egotism itself ain't unethical. It's just something to deal with.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 10:42 am
I think many here hold a critical misconception about what 'ego' means. The ego of the common vernacular (ie confidence level) is not the ego of 'egoism'
Ego means 'self' Your ego IS you, not a character trait.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 11:59 am
Your "ego" is NOT you. In psychoanalysis it is a mechanism for mediating between the demans of society (superego) and drives of our animal nature (Id). In eastern philosophy it is the illusion of one's separation from a world "out there." Both are just processual mechanisms, not things, as I suppose you believe YOU are.
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Doktor S
 
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Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 12:54 pm
Ego literally translates into 'self'
I am uninterested in eastern mumbo jumbo.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 03:22 pm
That's called closing one's mind, but that's your privilege. I am aware that my mind is closed in many ways so I'm not criticizing you. Zen-type people (perhaps mystics in general) make distinctions between, say, true self and false self, big mind and small mind, ego mind and dharma or atman mind, etc.. I think these dichotomies are more than dualistic mumbo jumbo. But if you have not realized what they refer to....
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 03:32 pm
Re: There is nothing ethical about egoism
Ray wrote:
Egoism or selfishness is inconsiderate of the being of others. It is not an applicable belief, because:

1) In claiming oneself as the only thing worthy of consideration,
one ignores the reality of other beings.

2) It is irrational to claim that one ought to be selfish as there
would be a conflict (people believing themselves to be more
worthy of consideration than another; who is right?)

3) Even if others agree that they ought to serve one's interest,
there is a problem with universals.



The basic assumptions of egoistic philosophical beliefs, are either/that:

i) Happiness will always = to justice or virtue

or/and

ii) People's pursuit of self-interest will not create conflicts/physical
force


Point (i) is not true, because virtuous or just actions will not always equal to happiness.

Point (ii) is not true, because selfish or self-interested actions do result in unjust or physical conflicts (e.g. a feudal landlord attacking another landlord for land), and the only way that a self-interested action would always result in sans-conflict, would be if one makes sympathy as one's interest, which would be contradictory to the assumption that one ought to be self serving.
If so you would need to discount enlightened self interest in the economic sense, in that *if* you were in business for yourself, and *if* you had as your net benefit your economic welfare, you may well be *forced* to treat others with courtesy and respect plus supply them with a good wage and working conditions, or you yourself will not benefit.

Can you do that?

I have my doubts……


PS: I am not making the argument that all people who are in business for themselves, at all times have to abide by this scenario, but the fact of the matter remains that there are many cases in which it is true.

PPS: This particular premise can be transplanted to many other human activities with the same positive results.

PPPS: If you like pop music clichés; The Moody Blues:
"That all the love you've been giving
Has all been meant for you."
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 04:25 pm
JLNobody wrote:
By the way, imagine two men, both with equally large egos, but one sees through it; he is actually amused by the ways his ego presses him to do various dishonorable things. But he knows his ego is unreal. The other man performs the same dishonorable acts but thinks that the acts are expressive of his true self. For this man his ego is real. Indeed it IS him. So ego size is not the point. What matters is whether or not it is transparent or opaque for its host.
Dissociation is a psychological process involving alterations in identity or sense of self. These alterations in sense of self can include: a relatively mild and transient sense that the world or the self is "unreal" (derealization and depersonalization); more permanent states such as amnesia (loss of memory) or fugue states (where a person forgets who they are and assumes a new identity); and the most severe form known as Dissociative Identity Disorder

Dissociative Identity Disorder through communicating on able2know.com Twisted Evil
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 06:55 pm
Doktor S wrote:

Ego means 'self' Your ego IS you, not a character trait.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 07:07 pm
Hey Extra Meds-

Where on earth have you been?

What's going on?I missed you man.

Quote:
had no ethical objection to drinking";


Stuff like that.Great.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 08:05 pm
extra medium wrote:
In the law's view (in most jurisdictions), you are reponsible for your actions if you are voluntarily drunk.

However, in the rare case you are involuntarily drunk, you may not be responsible for your actions. (ie in the rare case that someone pointed a gun to your head and told you to drink or something like that...btw, Spendius often does this to me when we go drinking at those dark inglish pubs--thus I am often not responsible for my actions)


Hey, Spendi! Great to see you too. Long time.

I sent the above missive as a sort of occluded "Hello" to you under the "Are you responsible for your actions while drinking" thread in this forum.

I thought it would get a rise out of you.

Alas.

Well, to be fair, you were probably too busy in the pub and all.
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spendius
 
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Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 05:45 am
Never too busy to chew the fat with you em.

What time zone are you in now?
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