One's god is another's demon.

If someone hocks a loogie in your punchbowl, do you think it's OK, so long as the punchbowl is big enough?

Did Jesus ascend into heaven?

neo, what's the matter can't handle the truth and the bobble?

Your first post contains several truths wrapped around your spurious contention that Jesus has some identity with Satan. Other than the fact that they were both 'shining ones' and had access to heaven, there is no longer any resemblance. As to whether they might be one and the same, who tempted Jesus?

Contentions that have showed up in several threads with no more proof than this one. I would like to see the answer to neo's question.

Re: One's god is another's demon.


This is part of why other more inclusive religions are becoming more interesting/more valid to me.

As a result of recent threads in the Spirituality and Religion forums, I find less and less reason to consider myself a Christian. I'm coming to more of an appreciation of Squinney's comments.

I've always thought it was important to question my beliefs ever day. The results of the beliefnet quiz I did last night will probably result in me investigating other faiths again.

The closest I have ever associated with a body of (belief)? would be Taoism (albeit I have some objections there as well)

I would also like to see an answer to Neo's question. This allegation about Jesus being Satan has been bandied about somewhat and I still have seen no clear evidence of it.

Uh oh, now, I'm doing it! Evidence?!

Re: One's god is another's demon.


I have never relegated any other religions "gods" as being demons. Well, that I'm aware of anyway. Where is all this portrayal coming from? I'm curious... What exactally do you believe talk? Are you willing to put it out there?

LOL momma!

Well, if we take the Old Testament traditional use of Satan, then perhaps Jesus is Satan (i.e. the prosecutor). Now if I remember correctly, the satan in the Old Testament works for God. He was a prosecutor, arguing for the law against a defendent.

If we take Jesus to be a satan in that respect, then I guess Jesus would either be our prosecutor or... God's prosecutor?

Okay, that doesn't make any sense at all. Jesus as Satan? Maybe if the God of the Old Testament really is a Demiurge and the God of the New Testament is a completely different one. But in the traditional sense of the word? Not likely...

Wolf,

Can you give me reference for "the satan in the Old Testament works for God. He was a prosecutor.....?"

The word Satan roughly translates into 'accuser, opposer, or adversary' and is a title, not a proper name.
Here is something, taken from a 'christian friendly' source, that may interest you.

Thanx Doktor S.

Just keep thinking like that MA. You're on the right track.

Satan most appropriately means opposer or rebel, whereas devil means slanderer.

It is correct that what we are witnessing in the dispute between Satan and Jehovah is a legal case in which Jesus is the principal witness (and we are minor witnesses) in defense of his father. Nothing Satan could do would cause Jesus to break his integrity. This is one of the reasons why it is irrational to equate Jesus with Jehovah.

However, it is even more irrational to equate Jesus with the one called Satan.

Wolf:

Reference: King James Version

Isaiah 14:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart,
a) I will ascend into heaven,
b) I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
c) I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 d)I will ascend above the heights of the clouds:
e)I will be like the most High.


COMPARISON:

OLD TESTAMENT
1) Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
(Note: Lucifer is Latin for bright.)

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (How arrogant, naming himself after such a lustrous heavenly body!)

OLD TESTAMENT
2) Isaiah 14:13 I will ascend into heaven


NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 24:51
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
3) Isaiah 14:13
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

The stars of God are the Israelites. (See Numbers 24:17 "...there shall come a Star out of Jacob,...")

Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said,
Look now towards heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him,
So shall thy seed be.

Deuteronomy 10:22
Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons, and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude.

NEW TESTAMENT
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his the glory, ye also shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

OLD TESTAMENT
4) Isaiah 14:13
I will sit also upon the mount of the Congregation, in the sides of the north.
[Note:
a) Mt. Ophel, just south of the Temple Mount, has been identified as Mt. Zion. Jesus as a child sat in the Temple.
b) Location of the Last Supper is just north of (Mt. Zion?)]

Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

NEW TESTAMENT
Luke 2:46
And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Luke 22:14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

5) Isaiah 14:14
I will be like the most High.

God says He is the first and the last in the following passages:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus says that he is the first and the last in the following passages:-

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and untoLaodicea.

Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

God's garments are sprinkled with blood in the following passage:-

OLD TESTAMENT
Isaiah 63:3
I have trodden the wine press alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Jesus' garment is dipped in blood in the following passage:-

NEW TESTAMENT
Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

OLD TESTAMENT
In Isaiah, new heavens and new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

NEW TESTAMENT
In Revelation, a new heaven and a new earth are mentioned in the following passage:-

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea.

OLD TESTAMENT
God is the bridegroom of His people in the following:-

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus is the bridegroom of his followers in the following:-

Matthew 9:15
And Jesus said unto them, Can the chilren of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and shall they fast.

Mark 2:19.
And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20. But the days will come, while the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:34.
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridegroom fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35. But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Revelation 19:7.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 20:9.
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Isaiah 14:19
"But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,..."
Note: The image of Jesus on the cross confirms it for there is no gravesite of him.

Jesus fits the descriptions of Lucifer almost to a T.
So is Jesus God or Lucifer?

Isaiah 9:
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus failed to ascend "the throne of David", much less "establish" a government "with justice and peace".

Luke 12:
49. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Words of an arsonist, certainly not a peacemaker!)
50. Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Jesus denies that he is a peacemaker!)
51. For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. (Jesus divides people)

Matthew 10:4
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace on earth, but a sword.

Jesus was NOT the Prince of Peace but an angry man.

But the Proverbs 22:24-23 warns "Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul."

Matthew 16:
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
18. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mark 8:
27 "...Whom do men say I am? (Jesus does not know what people think of him so he asks his disciples.)
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Jesus did not know what people thought of him nor his disciples thought of him so he enquired. He liked Peter's answer very much and gave him the keys to his church.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me:" (Jesus showed no loyalty to his strongest supporter.)
Jesus went further and mentioned about being killed. Peter instantly rebuked him for such a suggestion and would not have it. Jesus getting angry at Peter for not going along with his sacrificial mission called Peter "Satan". How ephemeral Jesus moods and loyalties were. So, Peter, who is Satan, built Jesus' church!

Luke 12:53
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, the daughter against the mother; the mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law. and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. (Fifth Commandment!?)

Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Jesus preached to "dishonor" filial relationship!)



Exodus 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Fifth of the Ten Commandments.)

Matthew 4:
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Strange way of fulfilling a law by preaching to break it! Another case of two-faced hypocrisy?)
18. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus contradicted himself with his own words here. He was teaching to break one of the BIG laws, none other than the Ten Commandments. One can only infer that Jesus by his own words would not be called "great" in the "kingdom of heaven".

Isaiah 9:
1. "...and afterwards did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations." (How true, Jesus unleashed such a powerful hatred for his own people that Israel and the Jewish people have not been "more grievously afflicted" than by this same Galilean!)
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelled in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

From Jesus' comments he appeared to be a politician saying different things to different groups to cobble together a coalition.

Wolf:

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew)
"How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Helel, son of Shahar!
how art thou cut down to the ground,

Helel, or Day Star, is a Canaanite god. Shahar is another Canaanite god

In his fallen state, Helal was known as Azazel, the earth-bound demon to whom the Israelites gave as a yearly sacrifice on the Day of Atonement a "scapegoat" that was sent into the wilderness for Azazel after another goat had been sacrificed before the mercy seat of Yahweh:

Leviticus 16:5,7-10
"[Aaron] shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering . . . and Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one lot for Yahweh and the other lot for Azazel. Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for Yahweh, and offer it as a sin offering; but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before Yahweh to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel"

Isaiah 14:12-15
"How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn [i.e., Helal, son of the god Shahar]!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
You said in your heart,
`I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of El; I will sit on the Mount of Assembly on the heights of Zaphon [the sacred mountain of El where the Assembly of the Gods met in council].
But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit"

Mt. Saphon, also known as Mt. Casius, is located just north of Ugarit, a Canaanite city located in northern Palestine during the 13th and 14th centuries BCE about half a mile inland near the tip of Cyprus.

This site gives you information regarding the Ras Shamra Ugarit polytheistic religion from which the Jews copied from or were part of. The Old Testament contains evidence of a polytheistic past where references were kept as the guardians of the monotheistic tradition may have forgotten what they were as the Jews moved from polytheism to monotheism from the time of the Captivity in Babylon.

The names of Helel, or Helal, Azazel, Shahar and Mt. Zaphon, the site of Baal, in the Old Testament shows Judaism emerged from the Ugaritic polytheistic religion or copied the legends, prophecies and gods from the Ras Shamra Ugaritic religion.

Momma said... ( I would also like to see an answer to Neo's question. This allegation about Jesus being Satan has been bandied about somewhat and I still have seen no clear evidence of it.)

May I help??... we have had astronaut's go " up there ", from what I heard.. It had a great view, but was a "hell" of a place to live. So the "evidence" you are looking for would have to be that Jesus " descended " into heaven??.
You'll have to construe what you can from that Momma.