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Why is God the fairy tale?

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Seeker
 
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 12:19 pm
Genuinely bemused here, not trying to have a go at anyone.

Why do atheists always compare believing in God to believing in Santa
etc. and say it is ridiculous? Is it really any more ridiculous than matter just being there, exploding and luckily forming exactly the right balance for our planet, then evolving in the right way, narrowly avoiding destruction (according to scientists) 2 or 3 times a week?

I'd be really grateful of an explanation as to why this idea is so often seen as more logical.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 12:27 pm
Seeker,

Can't answer that for you. I'm not an atheist.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 01:47 pm
Santa Claus is a being about whom beliefs have changed over the years, who cannot be shown to exist outside of the imagination of children, and who defies the laws of physics to give gifts to good boys and girls, and a lump of coal (or nothing) to bad ones.

God is a being about whom beliefs have changed over the years, who cannot be shown to exist outside of the imagination of his followers, and who defies the laws of physics to peform miracles and give eternal life to good people, and punishment (or non-existence) to bad ones.

It is certainly difficult to study science until you can understand the ways the universe may have come into existence, forming spacetime, forces, particles, stars, and everything else.

But the most outlandish theories are not as ridiculous as saying that a God just "happened" to exist who had exactly the right knowledge, desire, and ability to make our entire universe pop into existence, out of nothing, by magic. Why do you suppose that he created hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars and planets, just so he could create life on this one small planet? If he is omniscient and can access information instantly over 15 billion light years, he is in serious violation of the laws of physics.

There is no "right" way to evolve. The are billions of ways for life to evolve, and none of them is "wrong."

Exactly how is the earth in danger "2 or 3 times a week"?
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 02:33 pm
The day I will see a photograph of god I will take part in any debate about his existence. Until then he/she/it is just another cute story.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Dec, 2005 03:06 pm
Re: Why is God the fairy tale?
Seeker wrote:
Genuinely bemused here, not trying to have a go at anyone.

Why do atheists always compare believing in God to believing in Santa
etc. and say it is ridiculous?

Yes it is ridiculous to compare the two. Santa is based on a real historical figure.
Quote:

Is it really any more ridiculous than matter just being there, exploding and luckily forming exactly the right balance for our planet, then evolving in the right way, narrowly avoiding destruction (according to scientists) 2 or 3 times a week?

You are presenting a false dichotomy as well as a strawman.
Quote:


I'd be really grateful of an explanation as to why this idea is so often seen as more logical.

I am not sure what idea you are referring to, but as for creationism, there is nothing 'logical' about it. We have bits and pieces of data from many fields of science that point us toward several possible hypothesis as to the mechanics of life and the universe. With these hypothesis, and without ever losing sight of the evidence, theories are drawn out. If the theory fails to fit the evidence, it is discarded. What we are left with is the most honest, albeit incomplete, model of reality.
Now lets compare this a model of reality that has no basis in demonstrable fact and can't stand up to any kind of external scrutiny, and in fact is shown to be inconsistent within itself.
The only reason anyone would find the second choice 'more logical' would be either a poor understanding of the subject material or a poor understanding of logic.
Take your pick?
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Seeker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:04 pm
Terry - our planet is missed by meteors this regularly by what is in cosmological terms a hair's breadth. Kinda scary when you think about it.

Dok S - sorry what do you refer to as my strawman? Btw I'm not a creationist. I'm fully up for evolution. I just don't see why the idea that God started it is more ridicuous than the idea that it just happened.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:09 pm
Seeker,

Finally, someone that understands that each side could be viewed as at the very least, not valid, by the other side! Bless you!
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:21 pm
Seeker wrote:
I just don't see why the idea that God started it is more ridicuous than the idea that it just happened.


It is because in the absence of any evidence, the probability of any proposition is inversely proportional to its complexity. (Or proportional to its simplicity)

A working mind alone (with no simple mechanism proposed to explain its forming), ignoring the other posited attributes of the deity, is sufficiently complex to make the probability of the proposition negligible. Among the two outlined options, a bunch of disorganized matter appearing out of nowhere and a fully functional sentient being with superpowers appearing out of nowhere, I find the first one less extravagant.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:25 pm
Einherjar,

I can even handle that. I just have a problem with those that absolutely cannot see both sides at all.

I have no clue as to whether God wiggled His nose or used evolution. I don't discount the possibilty.
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:59 pm
My above argument is the one Frank Apisa doesn't follow, he stubbornly insist that in the absence of any evidence all propositions must be held to be equally likely regardless of their complexity. I think not as complex propositions seem to me like many simple ones rolled up into one.

(I exclude "designed" deities, as well as any that may have been formed by some simple process, by definition for the purpose of that argument.)

Anyway, this is why I consider the probability of a deity existing to be negligible in the absence of evidence, and would require quite strong evidence in order to seriously consider the proposition. My take on the evidence is of course the same as Franks.

Momma Angel wrote:
Einherjar,

I can even handle that. I just have a problem with those that absolutely cannot see both sides at all.


Well, to be fair I can only see your side from way over on my side, and from here it looks quite absurd.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 01:54 pm
Quote:
Dok S - sorry what do you refer to as my strawman? Btw I'm not a creationist. I'm fully up for evolution. I just don't see why the idea that God started it is more ridicuous than the idea that it just happened.

You wrote, emphasis mine...
Quote:

Is it really any more ridiculous than matter just being there, exploding and luckily forming exactly the right balance for our planet, then evolving in the right way, narrowly avoiding destruction (according to scientists) 2 or 3 times a week?


This is a strawman because you are misrepresenting evolution, and then attacking your misrepresentation. This bolded statement does not represent anything forwarded by evolutionary theorem. Evolution says nothing about matter 'just being there' nor does it say anything about the planet 'evolving' (on the contrary, biological organisms evolve to fit their environment, not vice versa) Nor does the earth 'face destruction 2 or 3 times a week' according to any scientist I've ever heard of.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:01 pm
Re: Why is God the fairy tale?
Seeker wrote:
Genuinely bemused here, not trying to have a go at anyone.

Why do atheists always compare believing in God to believing in Santa
etc. and say it is ridiculous? Is it really any more ridiculous than matter just being there, exploding and luckily forming exactly the right balance for our planet, then evolving in the right way, narrowly avoiding destruction (according to scientists) 2 or 3 times a week?

I'd be really grateful of an explanation as to why this idea is so often seen as more logical.


Just here for the sake of being a pill.....

#1 Atheists don't ALWAYS compare beieving in God to believeing in Santa Clause. Let's not engage in hyperbole.

In my opinion, unless you have done even the most rudimentary study of cosmology, you shouldn't be trying to make statements about matter, the formation of the universe, balance, etc. It's a little more sophisticated than that my friend. If you had any inkling, you wouldn't be using words like luck.

seeker, we get hit by meteors all the time. It is extremely rare that one large enough to destroy us comes into our vicinity. Again with the exaggeration.

Personally, I never believed in Santa Clause, but I do believe in God, or in my mind, a Creator.

BTW DocS (AKA "butt" Laughing sorry I just thought that was funny on that other thread, "butt") - was reading something the other day about Santa. Seems that there's a chance someone in America made up the tale of a historical figure as part of essentially a marketing plan for some Christmas stuff they were trying to sell, or get donations for something or another.

MA - that is the first time I have ever heard you say anything about being open to the possibility of evolution. Interesting.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:18 pm
Really Chai Tea? I thought had mentioned it before somewhere. I have no clue as to how God did what He did. I just believe (don't hit me!) that He did.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:22 pm
Quote:

was reading something the other day about Santa. Seems that there's a chance someone in America made up the tale of a historical figure as part of essentially a marketing plan for some Christmas stuff they were trying to sell, or get donations for something or another.

Santa clause, as we know him today...red suite, jolly, hohoho, flying sleigh...is an invention of the coca-cola corperation.
that they both share the red and white is no co-incedance.
Check out this
http://www2.coca-cola.com/heritage/cokelore_santa.html
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:49 pm
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:56 pm
Yes, the legend has a long and illustrious history.
I was just pointing out the modern caricature, the fat man in red and white suite, didn't exist before artists penned him for coca-colas christmas advertising campaign
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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 08:08 am
Imagine a world where all children believe in Santa Claus. Not only that, but they continue as grown-ups to firmly believe in that jolly man who comes down the chimney on a certain day.
That is exactly what happens with religion. We believed as trusting little children what our parents taught us.
As we grew older we should have questioned these strange stories. Surprise, most people never ask a single question. They find it easier to believe blindly in something based on a book, written by many men a long time ago.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 10:36 am
I stopped believing in Santa Claus a long time ago. :wink:
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 11:04 am
Quote:
The day I will see a photograph of god I will take part in any debate about his existence. Until then he/she/it is just another cute story.


What?! A photograph.....you are gonna be dissapointed....
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Im the other one
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 06:09 pm
I use to pretent to believe in santa awhile longer just to get more toys.

I can't believe there are actualy grown-ups that believe in santa still.

My parents never told me about Jesus.
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