Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discussing

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I've finally found a somewhat challenging theory of God's existence. Now, you ravenous atheists, prove it wrong! Twisted Evil

Theodicy: Proof of the Existence of God

1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

2. I have the "idea" of "the perfect." This ideas must come from a perfect Being (God).

3. The analysis of the idea of "the perfect" includes the existence of the perfect being (St. Anselm's arguments).

In regard to the attributes of God, the theory maintains that God alone is true substance; the divine veracity guarantees the validity of the clear and distinct ideas; granted the existence of God, the hypothesis of the spell of the malignant spirit falls.

In regard to the origin of ideas, the theory holds that:

1. Some ideas are innate (the idea of God and the first principles of reason and morality);
2. Others are adventitious (determined through sensation);
3. Still others are fictitious.

Only innate ideas enjoy the guarantee of validity. Thus, the idea of a God is determined to be valid.

Yeah, I know we haven't much challenge disproving God lately, but this theory really baffles me. Anyone wanna give it a shot?

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I think people make a mistake of theorizing themselves in a corner, reminding me of a dog chasing its tail. If one is into playing puzzles, it's all fine and I have no quarrel that they do it. But, I think these exercises are futile.

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Is the fact that we are imperfect due to some flaw in God?

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CrazyDiamond,

What would you like demolishing first...."I", "cause",
"existence" or "validity" ? Laughing

.

Edgar is right, this is philosophical tail chasing based on presuppositions about the possible "nature of God".

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Quote:

2. I have the "idea" of "the perfect." This ideas must come from a perfect Being (God).

How do you get from the first premise to the next?
What is perfect?

Quote:

The analysis of the idea of "the perfect" includes the existence of the perfect being (St. Anselm's arguments).

No. We can think of a mermaid but does that mean that mermaids exist?

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1. Some ideas are innate (the idea of God and the first principles of reason and morality);

It may not be the idea of God that is innate. It is the condition of cause and effect that is innate.

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Only innate ideas enjoy the guarantee of validity.

There is probably no such thing as "innate ideas." There is innate capabilities, that of reason and sensation, along with the precondition of time and space, but ideas can only be formed once we have sensed the world. Thus, rational thinking must be provided with information that is to be logically analyzed.

If you have never seen anything, how can you imagine the idea of adding two things?

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Re: Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discus

CrazyDiamond wrote:

1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

It seems like you've assumed already that a perfect being caused your existence, since you've said that, "I am imperfect, therefore I am not the cause of my existence," which implies that if you were the cause of your existence, you would be perfect.

On what basis can you assume that a perfect being caused your existence?

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these reasons sound like someone threw a few five dollar words together to appear intelligent to someone..

proof of god?
Laughing

Im not an athiest, but even I know that is impossible.

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Re: Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discus
I am so bored at the moment, so I'm going to take a wrecking ball to your arguments simply because I have nothing better to do.

CrazyDiamond wrote:

I've finally found a somewhat challenging theory of God's existence. Now, you ravenous atheists, prove it wrong!

Theodicy: Proof of the Existence of God

1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

This is based on the presumption that anyone who doubts is imperfect. Who says that doubt is imperfect? Doubt means that you're actually thinking twice about something that may potentially be wrong. If anything, someone who shows doubt is more perfect than someone who doesn't show doubt, because it suggests a rational mind that is willing to think things out.

Even then, the argument I made is based on the presumption that a rational mind is more perfect than an irrational one that blindly follows something without any doubt at all.

Quote:

2. I have the "idea" of "the perfect." This ideas must come from a perfect Being (God).

If point 1 is true, then point 2 must be false. If you have the idea of the perfect, that comes from a mind that point 1 states is imperfect. As your brain is imperfect, therefore the idea must not be a real idea, but a delusion and your imperfect mind must be deluded into thinking your "idea" is "perfect".

Quote:

3. The analysis of the idea of "the perfect" includes the existence of the perfect being (St. Anselm's arguments).

In regard to the attributes of God, the theory maintains that God alone is true substance; the divine veracity guarantees the validity of the clear and distinct ideas; granted the existence of God, the hypothesis of the spell of the malignant spirit falls.

In regard to the origin of ideas, the theory holds that:

1. Some ideas are innate (the idea of God and the first principles of reason and morality);
2. Others are adventitious (determined through sensation);
3. Still others are fictitious.

Only innate ideas enjoy the guarantee of validity. Thus, the idea of a God is determined to be valid.

Yeah, I know we haven't much challenge disproving God lately, but this theory really baffles me. Anyone wanna give it a shot?

Frankly, I had a difficult time arguing against Point 2 because I had no idea what you were going on about. Point 3 is even harder to understand. Basically, I think we're going at this all wrong.

The fact that God exists is undeniable. The Bible and all these Christians are proof that some entity known as God, exists. No, the question we should be asking is, what kind of an entity is this God? Fact or fiction?

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Wolf,

You wrote:

"The fact that God exists is undeniable. The Bible and all these Christians are proof that some entity known as God, exists. No, the question we should be asking is, what kind of an entity is this God? Fact or fiction?"

I can agree with this argument with a couple of changes of wording.

The fact that the concept of God exists is undeniable. The Bible and all these Christians are proof that some concept known as God, exists. No, the question we should be asking is, what kind of concept is this God? One for which we have publically observable evidence of a physical nature or one which resides entirely in the mind of individuals.

This wording does not of course solve "the problem" because theists will argue that "evidence is all around us" but at least it gets away from a futile discussion of "existence".

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Re: Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discus

agrote wrote:

CrazyDiamond wrote:
1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

It seems like you've assumed already that a perfect being caused your existence, since you've said that, "I am imperfect, therefore I am not the cause of my existence," which implies that if you were the cause of your existence, you would be perfect.

On what basis can you assume that a perfect being caused your existence?

I'd just like to make it clear that I didn't write this theory! I'm an atheist!

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Quote:

If point 1 is true, then point 2 must be false. If you have the idea of the perfect, that comes from a mind that point 1 states is imperfect. As your brain is imperfect, therefore the idea must not be a real idea, but a delusion and your imperfect mind must be deluded into thinking your "idea" is "perfect".

Actually I don't think it has to do with delusions. The word perfect is the problem since noone has defined what it is yet. It is however, known that ideas can be put together to form newer ideas. Like, there is no unicorn, but we can think of a unicorn because we can think of a horse with a silver horn on its head. Our mind can be imperfect, but we can think of what we think to be perfect since we can think of hypothetical situations.

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Hmm..Ray already made all the arguments I was prepared to make...
*bows out*

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Re: Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discus

CrazyDiamond wrote:

agrote wrote:
CrazyDiamond wrote:
1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

It seems like you've assumed already that a perfect being caused your existence, since you've said that, "I am imperfect, therefore I am not the cause of my existence," which implies that if you were the cause of your existence, you would be perfect.

On what basis can you assume that a perfect being caused your existence?

I'd just like to make it clear that I didn't write this theory! I'm an atheist!

I had a sneaking suspicion that was the case when I read the last few sentences of your post, but you made it seem as if you came up with the idea.

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No, sorry. I should have made it a little more clear. Wink

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So basically these theories are a bit like that one thing that says "matter cannot be created or destroyed"...only replace "matter" with "ideas". If the ideas weren't in some form from the begining then, they could never come into being.

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Re: Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discus

CrazyDiamond wrote:

agrote wrote:
CrazyDiamond wrote:
1. I am subject to doubt; therefore I am imperfect; hence I am not the cause of my existence.

It seems like you've assumed already that a perfect being caused your existence, since you've said that, "I am imperfect, therefore I am not the cause of my existence," which implies that if you were the cause of your existence, you would be perfect.

On what basis can you assume that a perfect being caused your existence?

I'd just like to make it clear that I didn't write this theory! I'm an atheist!

Don't worry, I realise that. :wink:

Sorry, I didn't really mean "you," I meant "one" - one what basis can one assume that a perfect being caused one's existence?

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shewolfnm wrote:

these reasons sound like someone threw a few five dollar words together to appear intelligent to someone..

proof of god?
Im not an athiest, but even I know that is impossible.

wow, i thought you were an atheist. something you said, i don't know.

that's why I never liked you.

ok, now I like you!

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Chai Tea wrote:

shewolfnm wrote:

these reasons sound like someone threw a few five dollar words together to appear intelligent to someone..

proof of god?
Im not an athiest, but even I know that is impossible.

wow, i thought you were an atheist. something you said, i don't know.

that's why I never liked you.

ok, now I like you!

You don't like people based on whether they believe in God or not?

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shewolf and I have a very special relationship.

That's because, she's "special"

Shewolf - don't forget your helmet dear!

I don't think she likes me because I am a caucasian.

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Come fellow atheists! A God theory actually worth discussing

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