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Tue 6 Dec, 2005 09:01 pm
This is an interesting perspective of what it means not to believe in God:
Penn Jillette is the taller, louder half of the magic and comedy act Penn and Teller. He is a research fellow at the Cato Institute and has lectured at Oxford and MIT. Penn has co-authored three best-selling books and is executive producer of the documentary film The Aristocrats. This essay was created for "This I Believe" series aired on NPR.
There Is No God by Penn Jillette
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I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?
So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.
But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."
Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.
Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.
Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.
Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
Penn is a fellow with the Cato Institute?! Oh well, nobody's perfect. I agree with much of what he said, but object to the criterion of
objective evidence. He states that
Quote:Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove...
However, many of us would be hard-pressed to justify a belief in family, people, love, truth, etc. People have proven themselves equally capable of ill as good; love may be only a chemical reaction and acts of love self-serving; truth usually is
subjective. Why should a belief in God be held to a higher standard of evidence than these?
Why should a belief in God be held to any standard of evidence at all? It's not about evidence. It's about faith.
I had faith in Santa Claus for a few years, Momma. Then doubts began to accumulate. Often faith just isn't very satisfying as an explanation.
Perhaps not for you, username, and perhaps not for others. For me, it is.
Momma
How do you respond to those who insist that God is akin to an imaginary friend or an old man in the upper atmoshere?
username wrote:I had faith in Santa Claus for a few years, Momma. Then doubts began to accumulate. Often faith just isn't very satisfying as an explanation.
That's the trouble with faith, username. You either have it or you don't.
Pretty good essay. We don't need no stinkin gods.
Echi,
It depends on how they put forth that opinion. God is referred to in many ways, the old man in the upper atmosphere, being one of them. Just as "old lady" used to refer to someone's wife, it can be said in a kind way or in a demeaning way. It depends greatly IMO on the intent of the person saying it.
If their intent is to belittle or demean, I will tell them I am offended. I am sure you have read posts of mine doing exactly that. I don't believe it is right for anyone to belittle anyone else for anything. I hate it when I do it in any manner. When I find myself getting angry enough at someone that I am thinking of doing the same thing, I would just as soon back off and remove myself from that peron's perview. I have to take the responsibility for myself and take myself out of it if that is what it takes to end the belittling or demeaning.
Exactly, Tico. Tho I'm not at all sure you and I mean the same thing by that.
Where's Frank Apisa when you need him?
Momma
I'll have to treat you like a hostile witness...
Does "your" God fit, in any way, the description of an imaginary friend, old dude on a cloud, lady of the stars, St. Nick... anything like that?
Momma Angel wrote:Why should a belief in God be held to any standard of evidence at all? It's not about evidence. It's about faith.
If there's no standard, or criterion, for belief, then there's no reason to believe. Your faith is certainly based upon
evidence. Do you not
feel God's love for you? Do you not largely believe the Bible is truth? This is, I gather, the evidence upon which your faith is based, and it's subjective evidence. My belief in a higher power is based on an intuitive feeling, nothing more, but that's still evidence--it's subjective evidence that has meaning and power for me.
I think Penn's position comes from that fact that many people allow their religious/spiritual beliefs to stunt their ability to learn, grow, and live well.
echi,
I am assume you are referring to those as belittling type statements? If I am wrong, correct me and I will address it accordingly.
Mills,
I can't disagree with you on that last statement. Yes, sometimes people do allow their spiritual beliefs to stunt their growth. I try to keep an open mind and adjust where I feel I need adjusting. I am very firm in my core beliefs. But, I don't think I will ever get to the point to where I think I don't need to learn more.
And, at least you would call "my" evidence of God some sort of evidence. I believe that evidence is directly tied to my faith.
Momma
Yes, people generally use such statements to belittle. That's not my aim, here. My question is inspired by your non-response to posts that make those assertions. I thought maybe if you did a little more explaining it might help me, and possibly others, to know where you're coming from. I would guess that your "conception" of God is something more thought-out than anything like I posted earlier. (I was trying to be funny.)
echi wrote:Momma
How do you respond to those who insist that God is akin to an imaginary friend or an old man in the upper atmoshere?
How much value is the opinion of one who admits (in a candid moment) that they really know nothing of God?
Seriously-- a self described agnostic or atheist is one who, by definition, has no experience with God whatsoever (that is why they either hold that they don't know if He exists, or else insist they are sure He doesn't). So what is their opinion of what "God is akin to" worth?
IMO, nothing.
echi,
I understand what you are saying and no offense is taken. I believe most others know where I am coming from due to posts in other threads. You are new to A2K so you probably haven't run across one that might answer that question for you. I will try to do that here.
I believe God is superior to anyone or anything. I find it the height of arrogance to demand proof of His existence. He created us. We did not create Him. To me, asking God for proof of Himself is saying we are better than God. And, I have asked many times, what good would a God be that had to prove himself to mortals? I understand that not everyone has the same reverence for God that I and others have. But, it hurts to read or hear when anyone would demean God in any way.
Momma
Thanks for the reply. I really did not mean to offend, at all. I now have a better idea where you're coming from. But I can also better see why there is such a great divide between you (and others with a similar view) and those that give you all a hard time.
You knew that I was not attacking you, so I know that your reply was not defensive. But the answer you gave me was not satisfying in the least and I'll bet even less to some of the others here. I can see how some people's questions could seem totally pointless or even offensive to a person with such strong faith.
The reason I ask you to describe "God" is because there are so many different ideas out there. The most ridiculous ideas, I think, are likely held by people who don't believe in God. (And so I'd say they're right not to.)
So, I don't know, it might be an impossible question. IMO God is nothing if not mysterious.
echi,
Perhaps I am not understanding your question fully? If you can ask specifics, I would be happy to answer them. It's actually not the questions I find offensive in anyone, it's the characterizations they attach to God and my beliefs and yes, some of the questions have done that. But, those that really do want to discuss these issues don't seem to feel a need to belittle or demean.
So, if you would like to ask a specific question to help get me started to answering you, I would appreciate it very much and be happy to answer you.
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