Get The IRS Out of My Church

CoastalRat
The premise being if you allow the nativity scene on government property you are in effect giving that religion support and preference. It does however protect your right to a nativity scene or any other religious scene on private property.

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I understand Au exactly what the argument is against having such things on government property. But again, how does that "establish a national religion" which you state is the purpose of the clause in the constitution?

Maybe I just did not get the gist of your post. I took it to say that the establishment clause was only to keep government from establishing a national religion (a very narrow view) which would certainly not keep government from interfering with religion by taxing religious establishments. Yet you argue a broad view of the clause to allow government to interfere with a local citizenry placing a manger scene on local government property. This is a broad enough argument that it can easily be argued they have no right to tax religious organizations since there is this complete wall of seperation between church and state.

So I ask, how can you argue both ways? Or maybe I'm missing something or my logic is a bit skewed (which is always possible since I am not as perfect as I once thought).

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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" sorta says to me that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibitimg the exercize thereof. No law - pro or con, permissive or restrictive. I happen to disagree with the precedents that have allowed a wall to bne erected. I'm no fan of churches/religions, but the way I read the establishment clause, it a "Hands off" deal; I feel the "Wall" concept is an affront to Original Intent. Congress should be able neither to promote nor restrict the practiuce of religion, where ever, when ever, how ever, so fars as would be consitent with other applicable law - I mean, like, virgin sacrifice pretty clearly would be right out, but a creche or menorah orcrescent moon in city park, or the Ten Commandments in a courtroom - cool. Not that I'm there altogether with the concept embodied by those symbols, but "Congress shall make no law ... " and all that.

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I tend to agree Timber. I take a very narrow view of what the founders intended. As long as no law is made establishing or prohibiting a religion, then I think the government should stay silent. By that narrow view, I would say Congress can tax religious institutions (though I would not want to see that happen), but taking the broader view of the clause as AU seems to support would seem to me to leave open the view that Congress should not tax a religious institution.

I just don't see how Au can argue both ways with consistency, but like I wrote earlier, it may be that I am just not getting what he is saying.

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CoastalRat

Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

Which means as i see it is they may not establish a national religion

Quote:

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....

In effect freedom to choose whatever religion or form of worship one chooses

How from those phrases do you divine that church real estate may not be taxed.

In NY City much prime property belongs to the church. Which of course is not taxed. However, where in the constitution is it written that in may not be.

To be honest I am not in favor of taxing the property on which the house of worship stands or a religious school. However church property used for commercial purposes should without a doubt be subject to real estate tax. And any money derived from said property should also be subject to taxation. I might again reiterate there is no constitutional restriction which restricts the imposition of such taxation

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au1929 wrote:

CoastalRat

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

Which means as i see it is they may not establish a national religion

Quote:
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....

In effect freedom to choose whatever religion or form of worship one chooses

How from those phrases do you divine that church real estate may not be taxed.

In NY City much prime property belongs to the church. Which of course is not taxed. However, where in the constitution is it written that in may not be.

To be honest I am not in favor of taxing the property on which the house of worship stands or a religious school. However church property used for commercial purposes should without a doubt be subject to real estate tax. And any money derived from said property should also be subject to taxation. I might again reiterate there is no constitutional restriction which restricts the imposition of such taxation

Hi Au,

Nearly every state government, county and municipality has taken the view that churches should be exempt from government control via taxation for the better part of 200+ years, no matter what political party controlled them at any given time.

Much of this history is long before the IRS existed. Where did they get this idea then?

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au1929 wrote:

CoastalRat

Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

Which means as i see it is they may not establish a national religion

Quote:
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....

In effect freedom to choose whatever religion or form of worship one chooses

How from those phrases do you divine that church real estate may not be taxed.

In NY City much prime property belongs to the church. Which of course is not taxed. However, where in the constitution is it written that in may not be.

To be honest I am not in favor of taxing the property on which the house of worship stands or a religious school. However church property used for commercial purposes should without a doubt be subject to real estate tax. And any money derived from said property should also be subject to taxation. I might again reiterate there is no constitutional restriction which restricts the imposition of such taxation

AU, I am basically agreeing with you that the establishment clause does not prohibit government from taxing churches. But I take a very narrow view of that clause and believe it means exactly what it says and no more.

Others, and I may be mistaken by including you here, have argued that this clause means a total seperation to the extent that the ten commandments cannot be in courtrooms, manger scenes cannot be on property owned by government entities, etc. This is a very broad view since in no way can any of those examples be seen as establishing a national religion.

So I guess my question is for those who try to argue both that government has power to tax churches and also the power to keep anything religious off of any and all government property. Either you take the broad view that government cannot have anything to do with religion (thus not being able to tax a religious institution) or you take the narrow view that government cannot establish any national religion (thus allowing government to tax religion but not prohibit communities from posting the 10 commandments on government property since that is certainly not establishing a national religion).

Maybe I have not explained my thoughts on this as well as I could.

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take em to Torquemada!!!!

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CoastalRat
I do not take a narrow view but rather the view of the USSC which told judge Moore, I believe that is his name, to take the monument to the ten commandments out of the court house. And I believe has ruled against nativity scenes and the like that are on government property.
As for taxation of churches the IRS is on firm legal ground in threatening to tax the tax exemption from churches that turn into political lobbyists.

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Again AU, I agree that the IRS is on firm legal ground. There are rules governing those entities who claim tax exempt status. And I support those rules.

But I question how you can honestly claim that the establishment clause is only about creating a national religion while also believing it is unconstitutional to place the 10 C's in a courthouse. I guess I don't grasp the idea that you believe this represents the government making a law establishing a national religion.

But, since this thread is really not about that, I will drop this line of discussion.

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