Christmas tree or Holiday tree?

But the original German version doesn't say "Christmas tree" ar all:

it's 'Tannenbaum' [fir tree] in German, not 'Weihnachtsbaum' [christmas tree] Laughing

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Walter, didn't Martin Luther bring the first fir into his home?

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Christmas trees are now about Christmas, no matter what their origins. To call it a "Holiday Tree", IMO, borders on the ridiculous. If you are buying a tree, and decorating it, you are celebrating Christmas.

That is quite different from the recent practice of saying "Happy Holidays" to people, rather than "Merry Christmas". I think that it is presumptious to say "Merry Christmas" to everybody and anybody, whether you know that they celebrate Christmas or not. "Happy Holidays" is an expression of good wishes, and is inclusive of all people.

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Letty wrote:

Walter, didn't Martin Luther bring the first fir into his home?

Might be, but that isn't documented at all.

The first source for a fir tree at the end of a year is from 1570. In Bremen/Germany, craftsmen put small firs in the windows of their guild houses, decorated them fruits etc and allowed children to "loot" them about Christmas.

About 1600 in Bale, fir trees became part of a "carnival happening" by cratsmen in winter.
Exactly this is thought to be the origin of fir trees entering the sitting rooms - only from that time onwards they are found there, at least and starting in that region.

From 1730 onwards, wealthy town people decorated the tree very similar as done today.

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I like to say holidays, and I don't care what others call it, it's alright with me.

http://www.michyland.com/Xmas/Bars/CharliesTree.jpg

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Quote:

That is quite different from the recent practice of saying "Happy Holidays" to people, rather than "Merry Christmas". I think that it is presumptious to say "Merry Christmas" to everybody and anybody, whether you know that they celebrate Christmas or not. "Happy Holidays" is an expression of good wishes, and is inclusive of all people.

I wrote the above quote. I would have added to it by editing, but I can't!

Let's look at it this way. How would a white Christian feel if a person came up to them and said, "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Kwanzaa"?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Let's look at it this way. How would a white Christian feel if a person came up to them and said, "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Kwanzaa"?

I'm a white Christian. <or a pale one at least>

I greatly appreciate it if people say "happy chanukah" or "happy Kwanzaa" or "happy Diwali" to me. I'm also very happy to be part of other families' Hanukah and Diwali celebrations most years.

~~~~~~~~

Letty, you have no idea how odd it is to my ear to hear "O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree", when I KNOW the song isn't about a Christmas tree. The translation scans badly to my ear.

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And how would a white Christian feel if the "Happy Kwanzaas" and the "Happy Chanukahs" were being said to you, over and over again, often by people whom you did not know, ad nauseum?

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Unless I know a person, I never, and have never, said "Merry Christmas" to them, except responding if they say it first. As Phoenix points out, Christmas has evolved to what it is today; regardless of its origins, we can celebrate it or not. In America, it is Christmas, with a Christmas tree. If other people want to change it, that may be a new evolution on its way, but I will hold onto the present for as long as I can.

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Hey, American eskimo. It isn't about a Christmas tree? My word, I certainly did not know that. Not one of my favorites anyway.

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I guess I'm of the freakish variety of Christians, Phoenix.

I'm not a fan of Christmas as a public 'thing', as I feel it is disrespectful of the meaning of Christ. I'm more likely to disagree with Christians about this issue than non-Christians.

I don't like how overblown the party aspect has become. How people only go to church at Christmas - and think that somehow makes them a Christian.

IMNSHO, being a good person in your day to day life is the way to celebrate the birth of Jesus, not a party.

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ehBeth wrote:

IMNSHO, being a good person in your day to day life is the way to celebrate the birth of Jesus, not a party.

I agree. If you believe in the teachings of Jesus, behave as he set by example. Throwing Bacchanalian revels was not (from what I know) what he had in mind.

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Letty wrote:

Reyn, I saw that bit of news. I finally broke down and got an artificial tree for safety's sake. I notice that Jerry Falwell is all up in arms about it. He never misses a chance, does he?

I'm not even certain that I will deal with it this year. And think of this, folks. Can you imagine all the songs that wouldn't work with "holiday" as opposed to Christmas?

Oh, holiday tree,
Oh, holiday tree,
How lovely are thy branches.

Doesn't work, does it.

Yes, good one, Letty! The lyrics wouldn't quite be the same!

Vivienne and I have always had an artificial tree of sorts. Can't be bothered with a real one. They make them pretty good these days. Besides, it's probably PC to the environment these days to do so. All those trees being cut down, etc.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Christmas trees are now about Christmas, no matter what their origins. To call it a "Holiday Tree", IMO, borders on the ridiculous. If you are buying a tree, and decorating it, you are celebrating Christmas.

That is quite different from the recent practice of saying "Happy Holidays" to people, rather than "Merry Christmas". I think that it is presumptious to say "Merry Christmas" to everybody and anybody, whether you know that they celebrate Christmas or not. "Happy Holidays" is an expression of good wishes, and is inclusive of all people.

I agree with what you're saying, although saying "Merry Christmas" seems a bit meaningless for the most part these days. It's like asking someone, "How are you?". You don't really want to know. You're just being polite. I'm talking in generalities, of course.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Let's look at it this way. How would a white Christian feel if a person came up to them and said, "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Kwanzaa"?

I'm white and not a Christian (or anything else). If someone said that to me, I'd probably say something like, "Have a good day, eh?" Laughing

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ehBeth wrote:

being a good person in your day to day life is the way to celebrate the birth of Jesus, not a party.

I try to do that every day, and I don't belong to a religion, although I do believe in "God".

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Reyn wrote:

Yes, good one, Letty! The lyrics wouldn't quite be the same!

Even if we look at a later version (that of 1825 instead of the original, ealier ones of that song) - that's the one most popular now in Germany, the translation would be: no christmas tree :wink:

Fir tree , o fir tree
How loyal are your leaves!
You're green not only
in the summertime,
No, also in winter when it snows.
O fir tree, o fir tree
How loyal are your leaves!

O fir tree, o fir tree
You can please me very much!
How often has not at Christmastime
A tree like you given me such joy!
O fir tree, o fir tree,
You can please me very much!

O fir tree, o fir tree
Your dress wants to
teach me something:
Your hope and durability
Provide comfort and strength
at any time.
O fir tree, o fir tree,
That's what your dress should
teach me.

Reyn wrote:

Besides, it's probably PC to the environment these days to do so. All those trees being cut down, etc.

Fir trees and spruces of various kinds are gardened here (actually really at my place), in the nearby mountain region and e.g. in Denmark especially for the christmas season - quite a few people earn their money from that and nothing else.

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Reyn wrote:

Letty wrote:
Can you imagine all the songs that wouldn't work with "holiday" as opposed to Christmas?

Oh, holiday tree,
Oh, holiday tree,
How lovely are thy branches.

Doesn't work, does it.

Yes, good one, Letty! The lyrics wouldn't quite be the same!

Reyn, Letty et al. That song is a translation from the German. It did not refer to a Christmas tree in the original version. If I were in the mood, and maybe I should be, I'd be extremely offended that English-speaking Christians decided to mess with 'our' song. The original uses loyal - not lovely.

Walter and I have both posted about what the origins and history of the song. It was about fir trees/evergreens, not a Christmas tree.

Quote:

DEUTSCH

TEXT: Ernst Anschütz, 1824

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
wie treu sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur
zur Sommerzeit,
Nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
wie treu sind deine Blätter!

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Du kannst mir sehr gefallen!
Wie oft hat nicht zur Weihnachtszeit
Ein Baum von dir mich hoch erfreut!
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Du kannst mir sehr gefallen!

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Dein Kleid will mich
was lehren:
Die Hoffnung und Beständigkeit
Gibt Trost und Kraft
zu jeder Zeit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum!
Das soll dein Kleid
mich lehren.

ENGLISH

<literal translation>

O evergreen, o evergreen
How loyal are your leaves/needles!
You're green not only in the summertime,
No, also in winter when it snows.
O evergreen, o evergreen
How loyal are your leaves/needles!

O evergreen, o evergreen
You can please me very much!
How often has not just at Christmastime
A tree like you given me such joy!
O evergreen, o evergreen,
You can please me very much!

O evergreen, o evergreen
Your dress wants to teach me something:
Your hope and durability
Provide comfort and strength at any time.
O evergreen, o evergreen,
That's what your dress should teach me.

Cultures change things.

I think it is truly silly to say this song, and others, are about Christmas and should remain so. Many of them weren't about Christmas - many are adaptations of pre-Christian/non-Christian music - but were modified.

They are fair game to be modified again. As are many traditions - they keep getting modified to suit the needs of the time.

North American Christians have no special right in terms of their traditions. They've messed with others traditions - they can expect the same to happen to theirs. It's part of how cultures evolve/develop.

<any ethnomusicologists in the crowd? this particular area is one of my joys>

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Right, Beth. It really doesn't matter to me, but the history is interesting. I just like music in any language. I took a walk through google and found all that you and Walter say is the gospel. Razz

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])The early versions of "O Tannenbaum" from the 16th and 17th century did not refer to Christmas at all - it was origianally a kind of late medieval love song, and only the romanticism of 19th century changed it and added 'christmas time'.

Nevertheless, I like the version "Maryland, My Maryland" played by a dixie band much better Laughing

(The oldest pubkished version goes in German like this [and I'm not going to tranlate it now :wink:

Tannebaum.

O Tannebaum, o Tannebaum!
Du bist ein edles Reis!
Du grünest in dem Winter,
Als wie zur Sommerszeit!

Warum sollt ich nit grünen,
Da ich noch grünen kann?
Ich hab kein Vater, kein Mutter,
Der mich versorgen kann. )

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Christmas tree or Holiday tree?

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