Intelligent Design? A Test Case

The hairworm, after being born in the water, finds a grasshopper and burrows into its body, feeding on the hopper's insides until it reaches adulthood, at which point it needs to return to the water to breed the next generation of hairworm. It accomplishes this by secreting proteins that mimic the grasshopper's brain chemicals, forcing the grasshopper to "decide" to commit suicide by hurling himself into the water. The hairworm then swims away, leaving behind a husk of a grasshopper that has, by this time, been reduced to nothing more than a head, legs, and exoskeleton, the hairworm having consumed all non-essential parts.

Now, its difficult, but not impossible, to imagine how this relationship might have evolved over time; but it is also difficult, if not impossible, to imagine taking any sort of comfort in the nature of the intelligence that might have designed it.

If the worm could evolve and develop it's dependency on the grasshopper, how come the grasshopper hasn't evolved to become resistant to the worm?

Perhaps the reason that an Intelligence designed this relationship was to illustrate the unlikelihood of Random Chance being the architect of all life, just as a clever artist will sometimes insert his identity into his artwork in an unusual way.

real life wrote:

If the worm could evolve and develop it's dependency on the grasshopper, how come the grasshopper hasn't evolved to become resistant to the worm?

Perhaps the reason that an Intelligence designed this relationship was to illustrate the unlikelihood of Random Chance being the architect of all life, just as a clever artist will sometimes insert his identity into his artwork in an unusual way.

Evolution is hit-or-miss. None of the combinations of random mutations that would give the grasshopper resistance to invasion by the worm have happened yet (at least not that we have seen. Resistance could still be working its way into the genome.) They might never happen. Nature is wasteful, and as long as enough grasshoppers survive and reproduce to propetuate the species, it doesn't matter that some become worm food.

If this were an isolated case, your signature argument make have some validity. But it isn't Countless species survive by inflicting horrible and unnecessary agony on others. If their was an intelligent architect, he was a sadistic bastard with a sick sense of humor. I wouldn't trust my life to him.

Interesting example, Greyfan. It is unlikely, to say the least, that this relationship developed thru evolution.

Is this another one of those if you believe in God you can't believe in evolution, or vice versa threads?

Is it so impossible to y'all that you can very easily believe in both.....

"why hasn't the grasshopper evolved to resist the worm"?

Because it's evolution sir. The process does not go out with a particular goal in mind....as a matter of fact, the way I see it, your argument goes against intelligent design, as you're saying the grasshopper someone should trying to evolve in such a way. The fact that it doesn't shows the randomness.

I don't understand how it's hard for some to not accept this roll of the dice, yes something can be incredibly unlikely, but still, there is some liklihood.

Serious inquiry....

Is it not possible there was an "initial spark" that set the ball rolling, so to speak, but from that point, just observed where the ball rolls?

real life wrote:

Interesting example, Greyfan. It is unlikely, to say the least, that this relationship developed thru evolution.

How do you know it's unlikely? May I ask how you assessed the probablility?

A large percentage of scientists do hold precisely the ID view that you are describing. They believe that God guides the process of evolution because they do not see naturalistic forces alone as sufficient to explain the origin of man, the complexity of living organisms, etc.

Intelligent Design is part of a calculated strategy that Johnson (the movement's founder and chief theorist, lawyer Phillip Johnson) calls the "Wedge," referring to the tool used to split a solid object?-in this case, the cornerstone of biological science. According to a document that appeared on the Discovery Institute's Web site in 1999, the goal of this plan is "nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies." ... This statement is pure propaganda.

...The Discovery Institute promotes Intelligent Design with a sophisticated scheme that floods the public with academic-sounding conferences... The core of this strategy is to keep saying that evolutionary theory is controversial until?-despite all the evidence to the contrary?-people start believing it.

Philosopher Barbara Forrest of Southeast Louisiana University, who has written extensively about the rise of the movement, searched the peer-reviewed scientific literature exhaustively and failed to find a single published paper in which scientific data support Intelligent Design.

...on August 5, President George W. Bush endorsed the teaching of intelligent design in science classes so that students learn "both sides of the debate." (Piffka note: showing once again just what he is.)

In response, John H. Marburger, III, director of the federal Office of Science and Technology Policy, flatly stated, "Intelligent Design is not a scientific concept."

...If ID is accepted as a credible science, then the most basic definition of a scientific theory and the fundamental principles of the scientific method are not being taught.

Science education is already in trouble in the United States... On international tests, (when) U.S. students reach the end of high school, they have slipped to 19th out of 21 nations in science and math, according to the most recent data for each age group. As the scientific preparedness of American students falls, others fill the gap.

ID is an insidious attempt by a religious caucus to impose its views on the whole country... Inevitably, young people will suffer most. ... science training will be a fundamental necessity in the technological world of the future.

...we must expose Intelligent Design for what it really is: religious prejudice masked as intellectual freedom.

real life wrote:

A large percentage of scientists do hold precisely the ID view that you are describing. They believe that God guides the process of evolution because they do not see naturalistic forces alone as sufficient to explain the origin of man, the complexity of living organisms, etc.

This is tripe and nonsense -- just another bit of propaganda coming from the ID Movement's Workshop, The Discovery Institute, an organization which I am ashamed to say, comes from Seattle. <God knows, I hope they built on the earthquake faultline.>

Nov-Dec 2005 New Scientist Online wrote:

Intelligent Design is part of a calculated strategy that Johnson (the movement's founder and chief theorist, lawyer Phillip Johnson) calls the "Wedge," referring to the tool used to split a solid object?-in this case, the cornerstone of biological science. According to a document that appeared on the Discovery Institute's Web site in 1999, the goal of this plan is "nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies." ... This statement is pure propaganda.

...The Discovery Institute promotes Intelligent Design with a sophisticated scheme that floods the public with academic-sounding conferences... The core of this strategy is to keep saying that evolutionary theory is controversial until?-despite all the evidence to the contrary?-people start believing it.

Philosopher Barbara Forrest of Southeast Louisiana University, who has written extensively about the rise of the movement, searched the peer-reviewed scientific literature exhaustively and failed to find a single published paper in which scientific data support Intelligent Design.

...on August 5, President George W. Bush endorsed the teaching of intelligent design in science classes so that students learn "both sides of the debate." (Piffka note: showing once again just what he is.)

In response, John H. Marburger, III, director of the federal Office of Science and Technology Policy, flatly stated, "Intelligent Design is not a scientific concept."

...If ID is accepted as a credible science, then the most basic definition of a scientific theory and the fundamental principles of the scientific method are not being taught.

Science education is already in trouble in the United States... On international tests, (when) U.S. students reach the end of high school, they have slipped to 19th out of 21 nations in science and math, according to the most recent data for each age group. As the scientific preparedness of American students falls, others fill the gap.

ID is an insidious attempt by a religious caucus to impose its views on the whole country... Inevitably, young people will suffer most. ... science training will be a fundamental necessity in the technological world of the future.

...we must expose Intelligent Design for what it really is: religious prejudice masked as intellectual freedom.

More so than any Muslim fundamentalists, the ID people are the real enemies of this country. The results of their avowed goal will be the ultimate fall of the United States to a third-world status. Science (real science) is necessary to maintain any edge in our world. If the Discovery Institute wins, our children will languish in religious-based biology classes while the rest of the world gladly steps over them and into the future.

Do you really want American scientists educated in the half-baked world of Intelligent Design?

These traits must work together or what good are they separate?

Any percentage ~= Large percentage for real life's purposes.

40% is the figure they cite. Not a majority, but a large percentage, I think, by almost any standard.

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol17/5319_many_scientists_see_god39s__12_30_1899.asp

Yeah these folks are staunch IDers.

Do not mistake my objection. If my neighbors and their children wish to believe in Intelligent Design as a matter of faith that is fine with me. What I object to most strenuously is the presentation of a religious belief as a scientific theory in a science class.

Nearly everyone educated in science agrees that there is neither controversy nor debate over the fundamental premise of evolutionary theory: Species evolve over time through the mechanism of natural selection (differential survival and reproduction) acting on variability produced by genetic diversity and mutation. Evolutionary theory is the unifying theme of all of modern biology, witness statements from many groups, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Association of University Professors, the American Geophysical Union, the American Chemical Society, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the American Physical Society, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Center for Science Education, and the National Science Teachers Association. As the late, great geneticist and evolutionary theorist Theodosius Dobzhansky, a devout Christian, explained in the title of his famous paper, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." Others agree that evolutionary theory is compatible with a belief in God, such as the Bishop of Oxford, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the late Pope John Paul II (despite one cardinal's recent reinterpretation of his writings).

The Intelligent Design movement is a deliberate campaign to undermine the teaching of science in America, and the evidence of this intent is brazenly posted on ID Web sites. The movement's founder and chief theorist, lawyer Phillip Johnson, and most of its advocates are fellows of the Center for Science and Culture at a conservative think tank called the Discovery Institute. The Center's publicly stated aims include:

challenging various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory; ... developing the scientific theory known as intelligent design; ... [and] encouraging schools to improve science education by teaching students more fully about the theory of evolution, including the theory's scientific weaknesses as well strengths [sic].

With these statements, the Center hides its true agenda behind a false claim that it is promoting intellectual freedom when, in fact, it is doing the opposite: stunting intellectual growth by encouraging students to believe that a scientific theory is the same as a philosophical assertion.

real life wrote:

40% is the figure they cite. Not a majority, but a large percentage, I think, by almost any standard.

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol17/5319_many_scientists_see_god39s__12_30_1899.asp

Yeah these folks are staunch IDers.

Laugh all you want, but remember this: just because someone believes in God does not mean they hold that ID should be taught as science. You logic is shaky and the statistic is meaningless. You'd have to line those people up and ask them one by one... Should I be teaching unsubstantitated religious beliefs in my biology class... or not? The answer would be a resounding NO.

It is absolute tripe to say that since a scientist is religious he or she must therefore advocate for Intelligent Design being taught in public school biology classes.

Let me quote you from the entire article --

BEING STALKED BY INTELLIGENT DESIGN
Scientists must stop ignoring "Intelligent Design"?-religious prejudice disguised as intellectual freedom

Pat Shipman

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/47366?&print=yes:

Quote:

Do not mistake my objection. If my neighbors and their children wish to believe in Intelligent Design as a matter of faith that is fine with me. What I object to most strenuously is the presentation of a religious belief as a scientific theory in a science class.

Nearly everyone educated in science agrees that there is neither controversy nor debate over the fundamental premise of evolutionary theory: Species evolve over time through the mechanism of natural selection (differential survival and reproduction) acting on variability produced by genetic diversity and mutation. Evolutionary theory is the unifying theme of all of modern biology, witness statements from many groups, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Association of University Professors, the American Geophysical Union, the American Chemical Society, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the American Physical Society, the National Academy of Sciences, the National Center for Science Education, and the National Science Teachers Association. As the late, great geneticist and evolutionary theorist Theodosius Dobzhansky, a devout Christian, explained in the title of his famous paper, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." Others agree that evolutionary theory is compatible with a belief in God, such as the Bishop of Oxford, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the late Pope John Paul II (despite one cardinal's recent reinterpretation of his writings).

Quote:

The Intelligent Design movement is a deliberate campaign to undermine the teaching of science in America, and the evidence of this intent is brazenly posted on ID Web sites. The movement's founder and chief theorist, lawyer Phillip Johnson, and most of its advocates are fellows of the Center for Science and Culture at a conservative think tank called the Discovery Institute. The Center's publicly stated aims include:

challenging various aspects of neo-Darwinian theory; ... developing the scientific theory known as intelligent design; ... [and] encouraging schools to improve science education by teaching students more fully about the theory of evolution, including the theory's scientific weaknesses as well strengths [sic].

With these statements, the Center hides its true agenda behind a false claim that it is promoting intellectual freedom when, in fact, it is doing the opposite: stunting intellectual growth by encouraging students to believe that a scientific theory is the same as a philosophical assertion.

It is a great evil that the Intelligent Design forces are doing in trying to teach religious beliefs into science and make a pretense that it is science. It is a lie, it is wicked to be so underhanded and it will get you nowhere. Even if you succeed, you will still be wrong and you will pull our science culture into a foolish miasma of religious dogma.

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The earth is round like a ball. I have seen pictures of it. I don't have time to argue about it.

PS - And it revolves around the sun, not the other way around.

I know nothing of this fella. I don't really care about this statement either because I assume his students already "knew" what sort of person he was -- a little out there with his religion IMHO. I imagine the rest of the teachers also knew this as did his administration.