faith, religion and cars.

NickFun wrote:


We.. you... as in all Buddhists? Isn't that a strong statement? I mean, to speak on behalf of all of them? Your definition is inaccurate, buddhist or no buddhist. Expectation is expectation, and faith is faith. They are two different things, and while faith can have a good impact on a person's life, expectations can have the reverse, if they are not fullfilled.

Cyracuz

Are you saying that "faith" tends to be beneficial ? Sam Harris says just the opposite.

However irrespective of your interpretation it is exactly the same sort of generalization for which you criticise NickFun. It is a truism that out of context different words imply different meanings. However we surely have to take into account the total semantic context when different speakers use particular words and I tend to agree with NickFun's generalization from what I know of Buddhism.

I'm saying that if you have faith in that people are inherently good you make a lot of things easier for yourself.

If you expect people to be inherently good, that may not be as pleasant.

Even if you expect the worst it is still possible to have faith that it may not come to that. In fact, if you didn't you'd probably give over as soon as the outlook got grimmer.

Wether or not faith is beneficial depends on what faith is applied to. People seem to think that faith and religion are inseparably linked. Well, they are not. To apply faith to religion is the only way to embrace religion, but that is not to say that faith cannot be applied to other things.

Faith is the capacity to trust without understanding, and it is a noble quality if steered soundly. Me, for instance, I have faith in science, that science will gradually unlock all the mysteries of the world. But I do not expect it of science.

When a Christian prays to God doesn't he have the expectation that God will somehow answer his prayer or bring him comfort? I am a Nichiren Buddhist. Faith is composed of determination, confidence and life force. Buddhism does not contradict science and the two compliment each other very well. When I am chanting I realize that the power to have my prayer answered lies within myself. Likewise, the power to stop a car with the brakes also lies within me.

It doesn't matter what the definition of 'faith' is. What's important to note is that there is a difference between believing that you will probably wake up in the morning, based on regular previous experiences of waking up in the morning, and believing that God loves you, based on no previous experiences of God-love.

Agrote, many people consider existence to be the proof of god's love.


NickFun wrote:


When it comes to prayer the important being is not the one who is prayed to, but the one who does the praying. To pray is to place oneself in a state of total devotion, and to do so does is spiritually enlightening and comforting.



That's what I mean. But does that differ in any great way from what christians do when they fold their hands? There are misguided buddhists as well as misguided christians.

By the way, stubbornness can be mistaken for determination, thoughtlessness for confidence, and in our strife for gain we often mistake our own interests with the interests of the life force. Faith is not all good always, but being a buddhist you probably know this already.

I think that sums it up nicely..

Expectation: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing

Faith: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.


..and around we go

I do not agree with the way you define expectation. I'd say that expectation is what you want to happen. It is the image you have of something yet to come. Faith determines how you relate to that. It is the ability to trust without understanding.

Based on how I've heard people use the two words, I've always thought expectation was based on past experience, regardless of whether the outcome is desirable or not.
I expect the train to be a few minutes late because it usually is. I expect my cat to be fussy about food now because she regularly changes her mind about what she wants to eat. I suspend expectation of whether or not I'll get a certain job, because I've found that to be unpredictable in the past (I can't say if I usually get the job I apply for or if I usually don't). But if I have impeccable qualifications for the job I may expect to get it, because my (or other people's) past experiences have shown that people with impeccable qualifications have a very high chance of getting a job (and here other variables that you have knowledge of, such as other people with similar qualifications, nepotism, etc. can change expectations). Also if I have never been laid off from a job before, but am working at a company where they are laying off many people, based on the experiences of others in a similar situation, I could be one of the people the company decides to keep but I wouldn't expect it.
Faith I find to be more vague, and is something I'm still trying to think through. When people have faith, it seems not to require past experience and seems to be associated with something that you desire will happen. Someone living by tornado alley in OK may have faith that his house won't get torn down during the tornado season next spring, because it has been fine in the past.
Also, I haven't heard people say "I have faith that my son is going to lose the job" (although you might say "I expect him to not get the job", depending on past experiences) but I have heard people say "I have faith that he will pull through and get the job" (this may be based on past experience but is not necessary). And I've heard people say that "I don't have faith in him when it comes to getting the job"?-so faith seems associated with something positive, and the lack of it with something negative.
But then it may be argued that with faith comes positive expectation?-after all, if you have faith that your son will get the job he applied for even though it's his first time applying, you are expecting him to get it - neither are you neutral (having neither a neg or pos expectation) nor do you have a neg expectation. Or it may be argued that in this case expectation is not being used in the right sense.