DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 07:20 am
parados wrote:
I can't decide if what gunga posted is satire or not?

I read it as satire, which makes the whole thing more delicious.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 07:32 am
DrewDad wrote:
parados wrote:
I can't decide if what gunga posted is satire or not?

I read it as satire, which makes the whole thing more delicious.


Delicious like a flying spaghetti monster? Wink
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 07:32 am
Quote:
But if ID is correct, then the intelligent designer of life must have lavished astonishing care and attention upon the human race to give it unique dignity and value ....

...This is how losers act just before they lose: arrogant, self-satisfied, too important to be bothered with substantive refutation, and disdainful of their own faults....

...ID will fit nicely into the emerging worldview of tomorrow's intellectual elite....

...to the extent that perceptions define reality, a theory built on the perception of design has a huge advantage over its competitors.....


ROTFLMAO!
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 07:33 am
rosborne979 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
parados wrote:
I can't decide if what gunga posted is satire or not?

I read it as satire, which makes the whole thing more delicious.


Delicious like a flying spaghetti monster? Wink

Ramen.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 08:51 am
gungasnake wrote:
That IS the logical import of what they're actuallly claiming.

So you keep saying, but I notice that the evidence you present for your claim is zero.

gungasnake wrote:
The leader of Germany is an evolutionist not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. For him the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front"; he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people.

Now that's a pity, because it means our conversation is over. I have a family history that makes me react very impatiently to gratuitous Nazi comparisons, and to the people who make them. Consequently, I take a hard line on Godwin's law. See ya.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 09:12 am
Gunga;

You've posted two examples of modern technology, a motorcycle and a car engine. I've asked if you believe that my child's tricycle and the motorcycle are decended from a common ancestor. Are the car engine and my lawn mower engine decended from a common ancestor? Would that be a reasonable hypothesis to consider? I'm trying to follow your analogy to its logical conclusion.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 09:50 am
Thomas wrote:

Now that's a pity, because it means our conversation is over...


What conversation??
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 10:05 am
Here's another case of things which plainly do not evolve...

Bombardier beetle:

http://www.uni-rostock.de/fakult/manafak/biologie/wranik/socotra/pictures/13.51.JPG

German ME 163 Rocket Powered Fighter, 1945:

http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/files/Me163.jpg

Robert Bass, one of America's better mathematicians, once noted:

Quote:

"Most of you are too young to remember the Luftwaffe's Me-163B rocket-plane which literally flew circles around Allied bombers toward the end of the War, but its powerful liquid fuels consisted of a hypergolic [self-igniting] combination of Hydrogen Peroxide (the oxidant) and Hydrazine (the fuel). Now the Bombardier Beetle (as presented in detail in both secular & creationist literature) happens to have two parallel tanks toward its rear, together with a Combustion Chamber into which the H2O2 & carbonate are inserted and produce a fiery steam-blast that incapacitates the predatory frog's tongue for several hours. This miracle of hypergolic biochemistry actually includes two additional miraculous enzymes, one of which renders the H2O2 non-explosive until it is injected into the Combustion Chamber, and the other of which reactivates the H2O2 and allows it to explosively oxidize the fuel _after_ they have both been injected into the beetle's rear-directed Combustion Chamber (complete with Venturi-shaped Exhaust Nozzle). To believe in the intellectually bankrupt dogmas of the Church of Neo-Darwinism, one has to believe that each of these 5 miraculous elements of the beetle's rocket-flame defense system came into existence as a random accident of point-mutation of a SINGLE codon [i.e. one letter of a 4-letter alphabet whose words & sentences define the Genetic Code] which just happened to have a _differential-reproductive advantage_(!) and so spread throughout the entire population's genome _separately_, just waiting for the day when all 5 elements would be operably in place (_and_ functionally wired to its nervous system in order to be switched on when needed) so that Mr. Beetle can suddenly escape death by singeing Mr. Frog for the first time!

Honestly, is it not more plausible to admit that YHWH said "let there be Bombardier Beetles"?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 10:25 am
I know, I know..... What happened to them, and why didn't that make Germany win the war??


The rocket engines only burned for a few minutes and then the things had to try to glide back to Earth for a landing, and they were sitting ducks when they did that. The P51s shot them to pieces.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 12:33 pm
Really? I know of only one instance of an American plane shooting down a German jet in flight.

You have links to the others?
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 12:38 pm
Gunga, one extensive cut and paste deserves another--particularly when it exposes that 'irreducibly complex' is the result of adaptations of other attributes.

Quote:
Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design
by Mark Isaak
Copyright © 1997-2003
[Originally Posted: 1997]
[Links and References Updated: May 30, 2003]


Other Links:
The Bombardier Beetle: Evolutionary Accident or Everlasting Architect?
This creationist web page is an example of the (incorrect) claim that the bombardier beetle's hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone explode when mixed.

Chemical Secretions of the Suborder Adephaga
Bombardier beetles belong to a suborder of beetles known as Adephaga. Adephagans secrete a number of chemicals for a variety of purposes, only one of which is defense. fundamental tenet of creationism is that all life looks designed, and a commonly cited example of this design is the bombardier beetle. Supporting such a claim requires an examination of the bombardier beetle and of what "design" really means. Upon examination of these issues, however, the bombardier beetle shows evidence of evolution and seriously challenges the concept of design.

This article first looks at bombardier beetles and what makes them special; then it examines how they relate to different concepts of design-- specifically, complexity, pattern, and purpose.

What Are Bombardier Beetles?

Bombardier beetles include those ground beetles in the four tribes Brachinini, Paussini, Ozaenini, and Metriini [Aneshansley et al, 1983]--over 500 species altogether [Lawrence & Britton, 1991]. The genus Brachinus is the most widely distributed.

A bombardier beetle
(Image from The Tree of Life. Copyright © 1997
by David R. Maddison Used by permission.)

Bombardier beetles are remarkable creatures, truly deserving the attention they have received. They earned their common name from their ability to defend themselves against predators by firing a mixture of boiling-hot toxic chemicals from special glands in their posterior. In at least one species, the spray even takes the form of a pulse jet. [Dean et al., 1990] (Other species spray an unpulsed stream; most species haven't been investigated so closely.)

The mechanism of their spray works thus: Secretory cells produce hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide (and perhaps other chemicals, depending on the species), which collect in a reservoir. The reservoir opens through a muscle-controlled valve onto a thick-walled reaction chamber. This chamber is lined with cells that secrete catalases and peroxidases. When the contents of the reservior are forced into the reaction chamber, the catalases and peroxidases rapidly break down the hydrogen peroxide and catalyze the oxidation of the hydroquinones into p-quinones. These reactions release free oxygen and generate enough heat to bring the mixture to the boiling point and vaporize about a fifth of it. Under pressure of the released gasses, the valve is forced closed, and the chemicals are expelled explosively through openings at the tip of the abdomen. [Aneshansley & Eisner, 1969; Aneshansley et al, 1983; Eisner et al, 1989]

Much creationist literature gives an inaccurate account of the process. Based on an admittedly sloppy translation of a 1961 article by Schildknecht and Holoubek, [Kofahl, 1981] Duane Gish claimed that hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinones would explode spontaneously if mixed without a chemical inhibitor, and that the beetle starts with a mix of all three and adds an anti-inhibitor when he wants the explosion. [Weber, 1981] In fact, the two do not explode when mixed, as others have demonstrated. [Dawkins, 1987, p. 86-87] (Schildknecht did propose a physical inhibitor which kept the mixture from degrading in undisected beetles; in fact, the degradation he saw was probably simply a result of exposure to the air.) Gish still used the mistaken scenario after being corrected by Kofahl in 1978. [Weber, 1981] The same mistake is also repeated in books by Hitching in 1981, Huse in 1983 and 1993, and twice in a creationist magazine in 1990 [Anon, 1990a, b].

In a creationist children's book, Rue does a better job describing the chemistry but gets the physical mechanism wrong instead, saying the liquid shoots through the firing chamber and doesn't explode until outside the beetle. "If it exploded inside, it would blow any Bombardier Beetle to smithereens." [Rue, 1984, p. 23] In fact, it is because the explosion occurs inside the firing chamber that its force can be directed against a threat.

One must wonder how much weight an argument of design carries if the people making it don't know what the design looks like.

Complexity
Just knowing what something looks like doesn't tell us whether it looks designed; for that, we must also know what "design" means. Although it's rarely defined, the most important aspect of design as it relates to creationism appears to be complexity. As Richard Lumsden says,

Systems that are of high complexity, that is functionally integrated multicomponent systems, systems that are of high specificity where only one or very few of many possible arrangements of these components works, and systems which are of low probability, at least spontaneous occurrence . . . these are the hallmarks of purposefully designed engineered systems. [Lumsden, 1995]

However, the theory of evolution also allows complex, functionally integrated, low-probability systems to arise via gradual variation and selection. For example, Darwin explained how, under his theory, a few photosensitive cells might evolve gradually into human eyes. [Darwin, 1872, chpt. 6] For complexity to be a problem for evolution, it must show some property that rules out gradual development. Michael Behe proposes such a property with the concept he calls "irreducible complexity," which he defines as "a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning." [Behe, 1996, p. 39] Although Behe leaves open the questions of whether bombardier beetles are irreducibly complex, Gish expresses the concept succinctly with reference to them when he says, "How are you going to explain that step-by-step by evolution by natural selection? It cannot be done!" [quoted in Weber, 1981]

Gish is wrong; a step-by-step evolution of the bombardier system is really not that hard to envision. The scenario below shows a possible step-by-step evolution of the bombardier beetle mechanism from a primitive arthropod.

Quinones are produced by epidermal cells for tanning the cuticle. This exists commonly in arthropods. [Dettner, 1987]

Some of the quinones don't get used up, but sit on the epidermis, making the arthropod distasteful. (Quinones are used as defensive secretions in a variety of modern arthropods, from beetles to millipedes. [Eisner, 1970])

Small invaginations develop in the epidermis between sclerites (plates of cuticle). By wiggling, the insect can squeeze more quinones onto its surface when they're needed.

The invaginations deepen. Muscles are moved around slightly, allowing them to help expel the quinones from some of them. (Many ants have glands similar to this near the end of their abdomen. [Holldobler & Wilson, 1990, pp. 233-237])


A couple invaginations (now reservoirs) become so deep that the others are inconsequential by comparison. Those gradually revert to the original epidermis.

In various insects, different defensive chemicals besides quinones appear. (See Eisner, 1970, for a review.) This helps those insects defend against predators which have evolved resistance to quinones. One of the new defensive chemicals is hydroquinone.

Cells that secrete the hydroquinones develop in multiple layers over part of the reservoir, allowing more hydroquinones to be produced. Channels between cells allow hydroquinones from all layers to reach the reservior.

The channels become a duct, specialized for transporting the chemicals. The secretory cells withdraw from the reservoir surface, ultimately becoming a separate organ.

This stage -- secretory glands connected by ducts to reservoirs -- exists in many beetles. The particular configuration of glands and reservoirs that bombardier beetles have is common to the other beetles in their suborder. [Forsyth, 1970]

Muscles adapt which close off the reservior, thus preventing the chemicals from leaking out when they're not needed.

Hydrogen peroxide, which is a common by-product of cellular metabolism, becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. The two react slowly, so a mixture of quinones and hydroquinones get used for defense.

Cells secreting a small amount of catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, outside the valve which closes it off from the outside. These ensure that more quinones appear in the defensive secretions. Catalases exist in almost all cells, and peroxidases are also common in plants, animals, and bacteria, so those chemicals needn't be developed from scratch but merely concentrated in one location.

More catalases and peroxidases are produced, so the discharge is warmer and is expelled faster by the oxygen generated by the reaction. The beetle Metrius contractus provides an example of a bombardier beetle which produces a foamy discharge, not jets, from its reaction chambers. The bubbling of the foam produces a fine mist. [Eisner et al., 2000]

The walls of that part of the output passage become firmer, allowing them to better withstand the heat and pressure generated by the reaction.

Still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, and the walls toughen and shape into a reaction chamber. Gradually they become the mechanism of today's bombardier beetles.

The tip of the beetle's abdomen becomes somewhat elongated and more flexible, allowing the beetle to aim its discharge in various directions.
Note that all of the steps above are small or can easily be broken down into smaller steps. The bombardier beetles' mechanism can come about solely by accumulated microevolution. Furthermore, all of the steps are probably advantageous, so they would be selected. No improbable events are needed. As noted, several of the intermediate stages are known to be viable by the fact that they exist in living populations.

The scenario above is hypothetical; the actual evolution of bombardier beetles probably did not happen exactly like that. The steps are presented sequentially for clarity, but they needn't have occurred in exactly the order given. For example, the muscles closing off the reservior (step 9) could have occurred simultaneously with any of steps 6-10. Determining the actual sequence of development would require a great deal more research into the genetics, comparative anatomy, and paleontology of beetles. The scenario does show, however, that the evolution of a complex structure is far from impossible. The existence of alternative scenarios only strengthens that conclusion.

A few other points regarding this scenario should be stressed:

Parts of an integral system need not be created specifically for that system, and features used for one purpose can be used for another purpose. The quinones which originally served to darken the cuticle later became used for defense. The muscles which control the valve and squeeze the reservior could easily be adapted from muscles which already existed in the beetle's abdomen.

Complexity can diminish as well as increase. In the proposed scenario, most of the invaginations in which quinones appeared later disappeared. In other cases, a structure could orginally develop with a complex supporting structure which later decreases or disappears.

Two or more parts can evolve a little at a time in conjunction with each other. The strength of the reaction chamber walls and the amount of catalases increased together. One did not have to be present in its final form before the other existed.

Any of these points makes it possible for complexity, even irreducible complexity, to evolve gradually. Many people will still have trouble imagining how complexity could arise gradually. However, complexity in other forms arises in nature all the time; clouds, cave formations, and frost crystals are just a few examples. Most important, nature is not constrained by any person's lack of imagination.

Pattern

Another aspect of design is the appearance of some kind of pattern. Again, though, evolution also predicts patterns--especially a nested heirarchical organization of characteristics--and that's the pattern we see. For example, among arthropods, insects share a set of traits that set them apart from other arthropods (six legs, three body regions, one pair of antennae, etc.); among insects, beetles are distinguished by their own set of characteristics; among beetles, the suborder Adephaga has a unique set of traits; likewise for ground beetles as a subset of Adephaga, bombardier beetles as a subset of that, and all the subgroups within them [Erwin, 1970]. Such an organization shows up not only when looking at morphological characteristics, but the same pattern shows up when looking at biochemistry, embryology, genetics, and even behavior. Although no genetic studies of bombardier beetles have been done, I can confidently predict that genetic similarities will closely match the morphological similarities which have already been worked out.

Evolution also predicts patterns of distribution, with the more similar species and groups of species generally occurring closer together. Such patterns are observed. [Erwin, 1970, pp. 184-208]

Creationism, on the subject of design, says little except that similar forms were created for similar functions and different forms were created for different funtions, [Morris, 1985, p. 70] or, briefly, that form follows function. However, that does not describe the pattern we see in nature.

The same function often takes different forms. Many ground beetles have habits and habitats quite similar to centipedes, but the two groups look nothing alike. One group of bombardier beetles (the paussines) uses the same chemical mechanism to shoot their defensive spray as other bombardier beetles, but they have a totally different method of aiming. Brachinine bombardier beetles have their gland openings at the tip of their abdomen and simply bend their abdomen to aim; paussines have their gland openings more to the side, shoot from only the chamber on the desired side, and if they want to shoot forward, move their abdomen slightly so that the opening is adjacent to a flange on their elytra that deflects the ejecta forward. [Eisner and Aneshansley, 1982] Pygidial glands are used for defense not just by bombardier beetles but by virtually all beetles in the suborder Adephaga, but the structure of the glands and the chemicals they secrete vary significantly among different families and genera of beetles. [Forsyth, 1970; Kanehisa & Murase, 1977; Moore, 1979; Eisner et al., 1977]

The same form is sometimes used for different functions. I know of no good examples among bombardier beetles, but rove beetles show an example. Many species exude defensive chemicals from the tip of their abdomen. Beetles of the genus Stenus have another use for those chemicals. When threatened while foraging on water, they touch their abdominal glands to the surface of the water. The chemicals disrupt the surface tension, which rapidly propels the beetle up to several meters. [Eisner, 1970, p. 200]

Finally, some forms have no function. Some species of bombardier beetles (and many other insects, for that matter) cannot fly but still have vestigal flight wings. [Erwin, 1970, pp. 46, 55, 91, 114-115, 119] Some may argue that the wing stubs have an as yet unknown function, but even in the remote chance that functions can be found for all vestigal wings, the situation merely changes to the previous case of different functions for the same form.

Creationists also claim that life forms were created in distinct "kinds," but these kinds also fail to appear in any tangible form. Different species are not always perfectly reproductively isolated. Some species of bombardier beetles are so similar that even experts would have trouble telling them apart. At higher levels of classification, it is a simple matter to find groups that are unambiguously isolated, but these groups are all nested within each other (a consequence of common descent), so it is entirely arbitrary which groups to label as different kinds. Would you identify "kind" with species, species group, subgenus, genus, subtribe, tribe, division, family, order, phylum, or some level of classification between these levels? If you decide that a certain amount of variation and no more is acceptable within a kind, it is always possible to find a natural grouping which includes only slightly more variation, and thus which could be reached by microevolution. Probably the best evidence for the lack of natural kinds is the inability of creationists themselves to decide what they mean.

In summary, the patterns of similarities and differences we see in nature are just what we would expect from descent with modification; they don't match what we would see in a creation where form follows function. "Kinds" are arbitrary and man-made; they can't be determined from nature.

Purpose

Finally, another aspect of design is purpose. But purpose may be even harder to distinguish than design is. It may seem obvious that the purpose of a bombardier beetle's defense mechanism is to protect it against predators--and indeed it is effective at such defense [Eisner, 1958]--but that is only our view; without reading the beetle's mind, we can't know what its purpose is. In fact, the bombardier mechanism is probably just a reflex, since it doesn't fire at some predators (such as some human collectors) and it does fire at some non-predators (such as a pair of forceps wielded by an experimenter). Ultimately, statements of purpose are statements of our own beliefs and nothing more.

Besides, an appearance of purpose is consistent with the theory of evolution. The theory says that surviving organisms have developed strategies that succeed; those which acquired failing strategies aren't around any more. Because the strategies succeed, they appear to us to have the purpose of what they succeed at. The bombardier beetle's defense doesn't work because that's its purpose; we attribute that purpose because the beetle's defense works.

Some people's belief is that the bombardier beetle's defense, whether reflexive or not, shows God's purpose. But claiming to know the mind of God is a form of hubris. The Bible makes it clear (for example, Job 37:5, Eccl. 11:5, Is. 55:8) that we can't understand God's ways.

For many creationists, purpose leads to an inextricable contradiction. They say the beetle's defense mechanism was designed, but designed for what? They also say that death wasn't part of the original design, but came later with original sin [Morris, 1985, p. 211]. If the bombardier beetle's defense was part of the original creation, it had no purpose; if it came later, it wasn't designed. And the problem involves more than their defense mechanism. All bombardier beetles are predators, and are thus themselves agents of death. Even as larvae, they are predaceous; at least two species are ectoparasitoids of the pupae of other beetles, slowly devouring and ultimately killing their helpless hosts [Erwin, 1967]. Was that aspect of its life cycle designed with the rest of the beetle?

Other Comments
In order to tell whether something looks designed, you must first be able to distinguish designed from undesigned. This immediately begs the question of what is undesigned. If you believe God created everything, then nothing is undesigned, and the claims of appearance of design fail for lack of comparison. Alternately, you can claim that only certain selected parts of the universe were designed by God.

Conclusions
Do bombardier beetles look designed? Yes; they look like they were designed by evolution. Their features, behaviors, and distribution nicely fit the kinds of patterns that evolution creates. Nobody has yet found anything about any bombardier beetle which is incompatible with evolution.

This does not mean, of course, that we know everything about the evolution of bombardier beetles; far from it. But the gaps in our knowledge should not be interpreted as meaningful in themselves. Some people are apparently uncomfortable with the idea of uncertainty, so uncomfortable that they try to turn the unknown into the unknowable. There has never been any evidence that bombardier beetles could not have evolved, but just because they couldn't explain exactly how the beetles evolved, lots of people jumped to the conclusion that an explanation was impossible. In fact, their conclusion says a lot more about themselves than about the beetles. To make such a conclusion based only on a lack of knowledge is a kind of arrogance.

Does evolution disqualify an intelligent designer? A lot of people reject the idea of evolution because they think it takes away any role for God to play in the creation of life. Such is the case, however, only for people who require God's role to fit certain narrow preconceptions of what "intelligent design" must mean. Millions of people around the world have no trouble believing in God and accepting evolution at the same time. Evolution only contradicts a man-made God that operates under man-made constraints.

Finally, remember that the general arguments used here apply to a lot more than bombardier beetles. Creationists have argued for an appearance of design in everything from bacteria flagella to butterfly metamorphosis. Those arguments all share the same fallacies; they are all based on a combination of ignorace combined with a concept of design that is indistinguishable from evolution. If a kind of design incompatible with evolution were found in biology, nobody would be more excited than the professional biologists. As yet we haven't found such a design.

References
Aneshansley, Daniel J. & T. Eisner, 1969. Biochemistry at 100C: explosive secretory discharge of bombardier beetles (Brachinus). Science 165: 61-63.

Aneshansley, D.J., T.H. Jones, D. Alsop, J. Meinwald, & T. Eisner, 1983. Thermal concomitants and biochemistry of the explosive discharge mechanism of some little known bombardier beetles. Experientia 39: 366-368.

Anonymous, 1990a. The amazing bombardier beetle. Creation Ex Nihilo 12(1): 29.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v12n1_beetle.asp

Anonymous, 1990b. Bombardier beetle's 'buzz bombs'. Creation Ex Nihilo 12(4): 6.

Behe, Michael J., 1996. Darwin's Black Box, Free Press, NY.

Darwin, Charles, 1872, 1994. The Origin of Species, Senate, London.

Dawkins, Richard, 1987. The Blind Watchmaker, Norton, NY.

Dean, Jeffrey, D.J. Aneshansley, H.E. Edgerton, T. Eisner, 1990. Defensive spray of the bombardier beetle: a biological pulse jet. Science 248: 1219-1221.

Dettner, Konrad, 1987. Chemosystematics and evolution of beetle chemical defenses. Annual Review of Entomology 32: 17-48.

Eisner, Thomas, 1958. The protective role of the spray mechanism of the bombardier beetle, Brachynus ballistarius Lec. Journal of Insect Physiology 2: 215-220.

Eisner, Thomas, 1970. Chemical defense against predation in arthropods. In Sondheimer, E. & J. B. Simeone, Chemical Ecology, Academic Press, NY, pp. 157-217.

Eisner, Thomas, T.H. Jones, D.J. Aneshansley, W.R. Tschinkel, R.E. Silberglied, J. Meinwald, 1977. Chemistry of defensive secretions of bombardier beetles (Brachinini, Metriini, Ozaenini, Paussini). J. Insect Physiol. 23: 1382-1386.

Eisner, Thomas & Daniel J. Aneshansley, 1982. Spray aiming in bombardier beetles: jet deflection by the Coanda effect. Science 215: 83-85.

Eisner, Thomas, D.J. Aneshansley, M. Eisner, A.B. Attygalle, D.W. Alsop, J. Meinwald, 2000. Spray mechanism of the most primitive bombardier beetle (Metrius contractus). Journal of Experimental Biology 203: 1265-1275.
Abstract: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/abstract/203/8/1265
Full Text (PDF): http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/203/8/1265.pdf

Eisner, Thomas, George E. Ball, Braden Roach, Daniel J. Aneshansley, Maria Eisner, Curtis L. Blankespoor, & Jerrold Meinwald, 1989. Chemical defense of an Ozaenine bombardier beetle from New Guinea. Psyche 96: 153-160.

Erwin, Terry L., 1967. Bombardier beetles (Coleoptera, Carabidae) of North America: Part II. Biology and behavior of Brachinus pallidus Erwin in California. Coleopterists' Bulletin 21: 41-55

Erwin, Terry Lee, 1970. A reclassification of bombardier beetles and a taxonomic revision of the North and Middle American species (Carabidae: Brachinida). Quaestiones Entomologicae 6: 4-215.

Forsyth, D.J., 1970. The structure of the defence glands of the Cicindelidae, Amphizoidae, and Hygrobiidae (Insecta: Coleoptera). J. Zool. Lond., 160: 51-69.

Hitching, Francis, 1981. The Neck of the Giraffe, Meridian, NY, p. 68.

Holldobler, Bert & Edward O. Wilson, 1990. The Ants, Bleknap Press, MA.

Huse, Scott M., 1983. The Collapse of Evolution, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI.

Huse, Scott M., 1993. The Collapse of Evolution, 2nd ed., Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, pp. 98-100.

Kanehisa, Katsuo & Masanori Murase, 1977. Comparative study of the pygidial defense systems of carabid beetles. Appl. Ent. Zool., 12(3): 225-235.

Kofahl, Robert E., 1981. The bombardier beetle shoots back. Creation/Evolution 2(3): 12-14.
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/751_issue_05_volume_2_number_3__12_4_2002.asp#The%20Bombardier%20Beetle%20Shoots%20Back

Lawrence, J.F. & E.B. Britton, 1991. Coleoptera. In CSIRO, The Insects of Australia, vol. 2, Cornell Univ. Press, Ithaca, NY, pp. 543-683.

Lumsden, Richard, 1995, quoted by Alters, Brian J., 1995, A content analysis of the Institute for Creation Research's Institute on Scientific Creationism. Creation/Evolution 15(2): 1-15.

Moore, Barry P., 1979. Chemical defense in carabis and its bearing on phylogeny. In Erwin, T.L., G.E. Ball, D.L. Whitehead, & A.L. Halpern, eds, Carabid beetles: Their evolution, natural history, and classification. Junk, The Hague. pp. 193-203.

Morris, Henry M., 1985. Scientific creationism. Master Books, AR.

Rue, Hazel May, 1984. Bomby the Bombardier Beetle. ICR, El Cahon, CA.

Schildknecht, H. & Holoubek, K., 1961. Die bombardierkafer und ihre explosionschemie. Angewandte Chemie 73(1): 1-7.

Weber, Christopher Gregory, 1981. The bombardier beetle myth exploded. Creation/Evolution 2(1): 1-5.
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3955_issue_03_volume_2_number_1__2_21_2003.asp#The%20Bombadier%20Beetle%20Myth%20Exploded

A French translation of an earlier version version of this document can be found at http://laurent.penet.free.fr/bombardier.html#reponse.


Result? Another ID myth busted.

As for my ID fear? That politics will dictate science. It has happened once before, when Stalin favored the evolutionary theory of Lamark over that of Darwin and Wallace for political reasons. Politics that contributed toward turned Russia from the breadbasket of Europe into a starving nation.

Could it happen here? Possibly. To refute my claim name one ID research project that was used to advance science, agriculture, medicine etc. It seems that the oxymoronic creation science spends the vast majority of it's time in the courts and the public forum rather that the laboratory---and that may well be the reason that ID is ultimately doomed, regardless of the political pressure it pulses from the abdomens of beetles.

Rap
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:10 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Really? I know of only one instance of an American plane shooting down a German jet in flight.

You have links to the others?



The 163 wasn't a jet; it was a rocket. the jets were able to land normally as opposed to gliding in.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:14 pm
raprap wrote:


]Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design
by Mark Isaak.....


Mark Isaak is a known ideologue and a member of the talk.origins inner clique. He'll be standing there promoting evolution even after the first five hundred years of burning in hell for it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:21 pm
That's a good one if you want counsel from the other camp to rip you to shreds.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:32 pm
gungasnake wrote:
raprap wrote:


]Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design
by Mark Isaak.....


Mark Isaak is a known ideologue and a member of the talk.origins inner clique. He'll be standing there promoting evolution even after the first five hundred years of burning in hell for it.

Gunga, nice to know purveyors of ID aren't above an old fashioned ad homeneim.

It kinda places this hypothesis in the proper scientific perspective.

Rap
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:34 pm
I mean, it'd be one thing if Isaak or any of his fellow travellors were to actually present any sort of plausible evolutionary path to a bombardier beetle as opposed to what you see above, which is basically just throwing **** at the wall and hoping some of it might stick...
0 Replies
 
ghostofgauss
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 02:44 pm
Quote:
To refute my claim name one ID research project that was used to advance science, agriculture, medicine etc.
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Milfmaster9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 03:34 pm
ID isnt science to begin with... ok if we cant explain something then god did it... thats very primative way of explaining things...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 04:49 pm
Well Milf-we are a bit primitive you must admit.You don't think we are perfectly rounded and complete do you?
0 Replies
 
ghostofgauss
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Oct, 2005 06:36 pm
Quote:
ok if we cant explain something then god did it... thats very primative way of explaining things...


In that case, when WOULD you accept that there must have been a Creator? If you saw a meteor fall out of the sky, stop three inches from your nose, comment on the weather, and then fall on your big toe, would you then acknowledge that a higher power was at work, or would you insist that it occurred in accordance with the natural laws (assuming you kept it around to prove to yourself that you weren't stoned silly at the time).

Anyway, I'll admit that the steps themselves proposed for the evolution of the bombadier beetle make sense, but the mechanism assumed for the transition seems woefully lacking to me. As you zoom in to the cellular and molecular levels, the enormous complexity required for the production of enzymes or even simple chemicals becomes apparent. What are the intermediate steps between a cell excreting nothing to excreting a highly specified enzyme consisting of thousands, if not more, atoms?
0 Replies
 
 

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