Fashionably Late

Whoa, I just read Chai's latest post about "Annie" though and I realised I have my limits too - that would seriously piss me off!

I mean, if "Annie" were that kind of person, I wouldnt have waited around in the first place, of course - Id'a left her a message saying, yo, you're welcome, but give us another call when you're approaching so we can get home in time in case we've gone out in the meantime, 'k?

But then not showing up at all, so you might have done something else altogether or gone over to someone else or whatever? Oh, I'd be pissed off...

Lots of interesting thoughts. I don't see a problem being late if it is a more laid back situation - like many parties I remember going to when I was much younger. Typically it was anytime after 8:00 and most arrived 9:00 - 9:30 - just an understanding. Also if it is something more cultural.

However, there are many parties or social situations where the host(ess) is paying big dollars. Many of these kids parties start at a certain time - activities start within the first 5 or 10 minutes and it ends precisely 2 hours later. These parents are paying per head and you arrive a half hour late. Not only are you being disrespectful, but you cost them money.

And this isn't just kids parties. Many adults parties - or weddings, showers, etc.

Do you think I am justified in arriving at my brother's child's next party 40 minutes late? I would probably not do it because it would only hurt my niece and I wouldn't want to do that just because her parents are inconsiderate.

That was I who mentioned microclimates of culture.

The anger here about lateness being rudeness from others - which I'm not knocking, it is how those who express this feel - is a kind of cultural set. Set, I just made that word up.

I'll agree that some of it is rude, given you are two people meeting where the waitee just has to hang out in front of a building in the cold, or some such, in order to transfer, say, a set of papers. One should have arranged one's day to facilitate making the appointment on time, and there is a thoughtless aspect to not doing that.

I tried to breakdown before that there is a difference between a business meeting and two friends getting together to go for a walk, when one is waiting in her house where presumably she can have a cup of coffee and understands how the friend can have run late - there is less expectation for pinpoint timing in my melieu. Though when it gets to the waiting person in that situation not being able to start a project, and all that, it is true that it is courteous to not make the friend wait. I don't care about fifteen minutes, and might get spooked if a friend always called at five minutes after a set time to say she'd be there in another five minutes.

At work, if either my business partner or I were going to be more than ten minutes late, we'd call - if nothing else because the one there first would potentially be fielding phone calls for the other person and have a need to know what time to tell the caller to either call back or expect a call.

On anger - back in college I didn't have a car, this in a city where the bus to my parent's house ran about once an hour. A friend who didn't go to school, but did work and had a car, would pick me up at some appointed time and we'd go for coffee, about once a week, to catch up. However, she was rarely there on time and sometimes went to sleep instead (she had health problems) and I'd be there standing under the med building bridge with no phone anywhere near. I used to get apoplectic, but she was doing me a favor and was at least sometimes within range of the appointed time.

That didn't go on too long; for obvious reasons I increased my taking the bus and saw her less often although we stayed friends for a few more years. But I remember my extreme anger.

I find a lot of this can be taken care of in the initial conversation - as in, "if one of us is late, let's do this..."
When I met a batch of online friends in New York, we had talked before and whoever got there first, in this case I did, went in and secured a table and ordered a drink. No big deal.

Hi NIMH

If it were up to me alone, I would rarely wait around for someone else, like said before, especially w/ cell phones handy. If someone couldn't take 10 seconds to call me, that's definitely rude.

What you said about waiting around in a cafe for someone?

I'm not sure about others, but I don't know of places like that here where you could just hang-out waiting for long periods of time where someone wouldn't come up to you and ask what you want.

More importantly, I don't WANT to just "hang-out" somewhere. The only place I want to hang out is in my home.

What you said about someone having to abide by your sense of what is rude or not. I don't get that really. I mean, I just don't see how making another person late because either (a) you are putting your own needs first even though you have made a commitment to someone. (b) you just couldn't seem to get there for some reason (that one I never understood - it always seems to have something to do with not having clean clothes, or needing to drop off you kids off first 40 miles in the other direction, something you knew you needed to do when the date was made, but somehow couldn't figure out that it would take and hour at least to do that)

Take this example....Let's say your concept of lateness is, oh, only after it gets past 1 to 1.5 hours of the arranged time.

We plan to meet let's say on the first floor of the library.

I'm sitting there, looking through magazines, books, some of which are really interesting. As a matter of fact, if I weren't expecting your arrival, and we had plans to go somewhere from there, I'd even be content to be there all day.

However, we DID have plans.....We both know what we are planning to do is going to take 3 hours.

I had planned on spending 3 hours with you, then, giving myself travel time, I either have to be somewhere else, for another reason, at a specific time.

You finally decide to make an appearance 1 and a half hours later. How do you expect me to be happy?
Now, either you're going to make ME late for someone or something else, putting them in a bad situation waiting for me. Or, we'll have to rush through what we were going to do so neither one enjoys ourselves, if I am to keep my obligation.
Or, and this is the one I would choose, I'd tell you I can't do what we were planning, because now if we did, you'd be stepping into time I had commited to someone else.

You might be even a little mad when I did that, but my feelings to that would either be (a) Tough, maybe now you'll show up on time next time and we can all have a good time. or (b) See what it feels like to be expecting to do or get something and it doesn't work out?

When a person is late, there just isn't anyway around the fact that you were not considering the feelings of the other person.

You have made them for no other reason than your own poor planning, or not caring. You have put them in a bad situation by screwing up their commitments.

If someone said we were to meet at a certain place, or even come to my home, but then said that they will show up anywhere between 1 and 2:30, I would ask them to figure out THEIR plans for the day a little better before putting me in a situation that my whole day is shot.

Do you really mean to say that if I said I was coming to your house at 1, but didn't show up until 2:30 that you would think nothing of it?
If you were going out to eat, you'd be staving by then, if you were going to a movie, you've missed it and will now have to wait even longer to see it, if you were just going to sit around and talk, uh, sorry, but it's getting late and I have to do a bunch of other stuff now.

It just seems so selfish.

Oh, so much cultural difference - making my head hurt.

All around me people are having kids now, it seems - my nephew is over 2, J. has a baby, E. has a 4-year-old, N.'s daughter is going to primary school now - my sis' friends have kids. OK, so most of them are still real small, so it might be that this is all still to come. But I doubt it'll be quite to that extent.

A kid's party, in my (micro)culture (ie, Dutch and none too posh) means, I think - I mean, I havent been at many yet, but from what I gather - basically, you invite your kid's friends and their parents (or your friends with their kids, probably the same people) over to your place, you make or buy a cake or three, you have some snacks at hand in case people get hungry, the parents sit and talk and the kids run around and amuse themselves fine.

Or no, of course - you might all go to the park, more fun for the kids there with the playgrounds and everything - so then anyone who comes late will have to phone and catch up to there.

Whenever I hear these stories in threads here, from Soz for example, I share her bafflement at, you know, the $$ involved, or the sheer amount of organisation and elaborateness - like its the norm to compete with Disneyworld or something? I mean, it must be great for the kids, admittedly .. or is it, really? It all sounds so unnaturally over-organised, over-scheduled, over...competitive ... over-stressed kinda, for them too? I dunno, really...

Mind you, thats more like an associative line of thought just loosely connected to your post (its the professionally organised party that you pay per head per minute for that set me off). But I do think that all that kind of difference plays into the time issue as well. I mean, yes of course, the more everything is as fiercely organised as that, the more time scheduling becomes all-important too.

I'm just kinda ehh... shirking/intimidated/put off by the whole ... the whole of it, I guess. I can see that those around me who've become parents now have to organise a lot more - but its also nothing quite like what I'm getting from how it is there (or it might be a class rather than/as well as a country thing).

Sozobe, how does that work in Deaf culture then? The culture of Deaf-Standard-Time versus the demands of strictly time&money-organised social events? Do they just deal with them differently?

Oh, and parameters, is what I wanted to say. I think we're all talking different things, too.

I mean, its cool to get together and gripe about those bloody latecomers, but, say, Chai is talking about losing respect for people when they are hours late, whereas eBeth goes home / will consider dropping the contact if you're over 15 mins late. Thats hardly the same thing.

Me, for one, I'll happily stay 10, 20, even 30 mins at an appointed place, but after that I'll be annoyed, forsure. Except if they're coming to my home, in which case I'm probably glad if they're half an hour late, but will still be upset if they're an hour late. Unless it's a group thing, where there's already people around, but someone else comes in an hour or two later, thats OK again. Et cetera.

Business is different again, of course (I come in royally late at work too, but not if I have an appointment. Which I rarely have, happily )


Well, theres a good point, I'm in the luxury position of living in the walhalla of coffeehouses, Central Europe, and there's a wide choice of comfortable, cute, interesting or otherwise OK places to while around in if time gets stretchy, and nobody looks strange at somebody sitting by his/her own. I mean, ya have to buy a coffee but it doesnt cost much here either, plus, its nice.

Downtown in a Dutch city aint bad either. But yeah, no idea how that would work if I lived in, I dunno, Fort Worth. (Note, I have no clue what Ft Worth looks like, I just imagine it to be an unlucky place for that kind of thing. Or, Amarillo, TX or something.)

Fort Worth.......





Amarillo.......





Austin.....

Nimh - If going to a kids party whether it involves being at someone's house or outside or at McDonald's or a laser tag or where ever… if some one doesn't want to go - simply deny the invitation. The price tag of the party doesn't matter, however, whichever situation it is - there is money involved as well as children's feelings. So by not arriving on time you are wasting some one's money and/or hurting a child - imagine it is a half hour after a child expects people to attend his party - he is thinking no one likes me or wants to come to my party. Obviously people who come late really are not being considerate of this child's feelings.

Personally, I typically have simple parties with some organized games. A favorite is always different versions of musical chairs. However, I don't judge some one simply because they want to spend lots of money and have a more elaborate party. It is their choice. I will arrive at a party on time whether it is a home party or one at Disneyland. I respect the person giving the party (whether they spent $1,000 or $10).

Austin looks interesting, anyway.



Lemme think...

OK, example. In Naperville, we had some friends we hung out with a lot, a Deaf woman married to a Deaf guy with a few kids between them (second marriage) including a hearing daughter about sozlet's age. The daughter, C, had a birthday right around the 4th of July. The birthday party was all hearing kids, sozlet + friends from preschool. I was the only other deaf parent. Then the family also hosted an annual 4th of July BBQ/ shindig for Deaf friends. So to compare and contrast:

The birthday party was meticulously organized. Older kids had their roles. We arrived 5 minutes late and were the second-to-last ones there. (Person who arrived 10 minutes late was hearing, harried working mom type.) Kids played a few games, whacked at a pinata, had cake and ice cream. Whole thing lasted about an hour.

Hearing parents + kids left, sozlet and I stayed on and helped clean up, and mom + I chatted for a while (we'd tried to be nice about not signing in front of hearing people, we both read lips pretty well). Sozlet and I left maybe an hour later.

4th of July shindig:

We were invited via email... OK, I actually looked it up. :-)



We probably arrived around 3:45, as one of the first families there. It was definitely understood that as a Deaf social event, with "around" phrasing, 3:00 on the dot would be too early. 3:15 - 3:30 would be "punctual" (as early as anyone was expected), right around when we arrived would still be considered early-ish. Preparations were still being made, we helped. Some food was out right away, then more and more as people arrived and stuff became ready. Kids ran amok. (They had a pool.)

Entree-type food was actually made closer to 5:30 or 6. Lots of people there then. (And the ones who arrived at 6, nominally 3 hours late, weren't considered "late" at all.) A few more arrived even later, having already eaten their dinners, and had some dessert. Some arrived just before we all tromped off to watch fireworks together. Some of the people who had been there from the beginning had left by that point.

Summary: The event itself was structured specifically so it wouldn't be any big deal if people arrived late. A lot of flexibility built-in. That made it a very Deaf event.

Your Deaf events are quite like my social events with friends. Maybe it's also a california thing, the casualness/elasticity.

Yeah, there are certain elements that are more and less Deaf, but overall it's marked by a familiarity and flexibility that can be found in a lot of cultures, not just Deaf culture.

It's not the culture in which I was raised -- Minnesotans are good and Scandinavian, a punctual lot -- but I can usually navigate/ switch tracks as needed. (Sometimes it pisses me off, usually when someone's supposed to show up at my house or at a meeting place and they're more than, hmmm, 45 minutes late. I'm usually fine 'til 30 minutes, then start getting antsy and give it 15 more minutes, then start getting pissed.)

If the friend is 45 minutes late at arriving at my house and hasn't called, I'll start doing something else, though I'll stop for a chat and cuppa tea, whatever., if they show up - but generally I'll be into the next thing. If it's at a cafe, I'll finish my glass of white and leave, chances being good that whoever it is has entirely forgotten or is caught up in some difficulty.

But that brings up that I'm talking about friends, not first time acquaintances or business appointments. Whether how people deal with timing may have something to do with who gets to move from acquaintance to friend, whether it is about punctuality or ease - I'm supposing this is true, but it isn't at all key, for me. If I value the person, I'll adapt in some way to protect myself from their discomfort or my own. Usually.

Yep, the event you describe would be more like something my friends would do as well, Soz (just bigger in scale). (Which is probably why the coming late thing is less of a big deal - though I'm not saying it's not an issue altogether!!)

OK, question about the kids, re: what Linkat said last. I dont have any experience with kids over 6 or so. But, like, with the wee ones - I mean, of course a kid is going to mightily dissapointed if his friends (that is, their parents) dont show up at all. Especially if its several of them. Thats really sad. But then I dont think anyone here has suggested that its OK to just not show up at all somewhere, esp without calling, so I'm not sure what Linkats point there was in re: to.

But do kids themselves actually really care whether this friend or that comes punctually at 3, or at 3:15, or at 3:30? (I mean, yes if the whole thing only lasts an hour I can see that, but wouldnt that be an exception?) Isn't it perhaps more a thing of the parents involved?

I mean, I dont remember that, from being a kid - I'd just be happy about all the people coming (and bringing gifts! ), not so much about what exact time they came. But then memory is unreliable, my childhood memories in particular (dont remember anything from before I was 7), and my experience with kids now still very limited..

Nimh - since you don't have kids it is reasonable for you not to understand. Say you have a party scheduled for 1:00. You have everything set up for about 12:45. Then you are basically waiting for guests to arrive. Grandparents arrive 10 minutes early. Child excited to see Grandparents, but really wants cousins to arrive as they are close. For young children 10 minutes feels like an hour. Have you ever seen TV shows/commercials where children in a car say are we there yet - 5 minutes after leaving the house? It is true!

So going back to the party…no one children arrive until 15 minutes after the start of the party. It seems like 2 hours to a three year old. And then the next group (cousins) finally arrive after a half hour. It would be fine nimh if this lateness was an exception, however, no one with children arrived on time. Granted one group did arrive about 15 minutes late, but the others were all more than a half hour late.

Kids may bounce back rather quickly, but many also have a longgggg memory. To this day I remember an aunt that did not bring me a birthday present. My birthday is right after Christmas so when she showed up she didn't bring me a present. She said she didn't have any money left after Christmas, but would pick one up for me later. She never did and I never forgot.

I dunno, I think it's not kids per se so much as the structure. If there is a structure where a thing starts at a certain time and can't properly get started until everyone is there -- kids or no -- it makes more of a difference if someone is late. If it is less structured and more free-flowing -- kids or no -- it doesn't make as much difference. (The kids at the party I mentioned weren't at all upset that people arrived 3 hours "late", they were just happy to see 'em when they did arrive.)

Not saying that structure is inherently good or bad, just not as sure that kids are the variable there.

Was your situation a child's birthday party? My child was upset and kept asking where her cousin was - she was visibly upset.

You also mentioned "the kids" - so it sounds as if there were a group of children already there. I suppose it would not have mattered as much if there were more children at the party on time. I did structure it so that there was a choice of a couple of activities children could participate in as they flowed in. I didn't expect that everyone would arrive exactly on time, however, I would have expected more within the first 15 minutes or so.

I mentioned a few scenarios above... this one was half a kid's birthday party and half a 4th of July celebration (the two were within days of each other). Sozlet was the first kid to arrive, I think, 45 minutes "late", (scroll back a few pages for explanation of the quotes around "late"), then more gradually trickled in. There weren't any scheduled activities beyond eating and frolicking in the pool (preferably not at the same time...)

That's part of what nimh and I have talked about too, not sure if it was here or elsewhere, the whole idea of a party having all these activities rather than just an informal gathering with maybe some cake at some point.

Note, I'm not saying that you didn't have the right to be upset, just, I don't think it's a kid thing, I don't think kids or having kids is the main variable. I think it's a cultural thing, and I can see both sides of it. (Things I like and dislike about both a more structured, punctual culture and a less structured, "late" culture.)

Odd because our party was not that structured. Like I said - I had activities set out so that children could play with them as they arrived if they wanted to. The only structure was a musical chair game and one other sort of treasure hunt with cake to follow.

It could be cultural in that my child expected kids to be at her party and that we typically arrive on time to parties. My daughter was also very excited about her birthday party as she had just attended her cousin's the week before. So I think the anticipation combined with the fact when her parents tell her something (like it is time for her party) she is used to hearing the truth from mom and dad.

Sure.

I think that's part of the cultural aspect -- you expected people would show up on time, and told your daughter that, and it didn't happen. In the party I mentioned, nobody expected anyone to show up exactly on time, and so there were no particular expectations to be dashed, and the kids weren't disappointed.

Again, I understand why you were upset, am just trying to isolate the kid part of it in terms of what you said to nimh.

Although it is true that to children 5 minutes is like an hour. That is definately a kid thing.

Also, adults have the capability to understand things like traffic, and even cultural differences, for children it is like - well my party starts at 3:00 - I expect it to start at three. They know things as exactly how you explain it to them - more black and white. For example one of her cousins couldn't come because she went to visit her father. As adults you understand the complications of a divorced parent situation, for children, they heard her cousin was coming and that is what they expect.