Fashionably Late

I'm a little like Eva in that I am reasonably precise about time when I have to be and more desultory when I don't. I spent a lot of years with several laboratory clocks ticking at the same time... and another bunch of years being on time to meet design clients and rushing to get projects out while constantly keeping track of what I did on those projects for how many minutes, for billing purposes, and future time estimating purposes. Enough already. Appearance time is really a matter of courtesy and circumstances on the need for precision vary.

Oh, ask away, Chai Tea.

It's just part of the culture, "Deaf Standard Time." (Late.) It has to do with a certain relaxation, comfort, familiarity. You're seen as anal and a little boring if you insist on being on time or get prissy if someone's late. What does it matter, in the scheme of things? A life spent scurrying around while checking one's watch at 5-minute intervals is not a life worth living.

Etc.

So, while it's not always exactly 30 minutes, that's usually about how late a Deaf person (cap D denotes culture) ends up being. I used to go to a regular meeting that was advertised as starting at 5:30 when everyone knew it actually was supposed to start at 6, but the DST was built in.

Oh, and as to what "culturally Deaf" means...

One can be unable to hear -- that is deaf. It is an audiological construct.

One can be fluent in ASL, and familiar with the many other markers of Deaf culture -- that is Deaf. It is a cultural construct.

Some hearing people can be Deaf (or at least bi-cultural), such as those who were born to Deaf parents and were raised in a Deaf milieu. ASL is their first language, and the cultural norms that they are most familiar with are Deaf cultural norms.

I already laid out some of the main aspects of Deaf culture in my last post, but to give a little more detail... If I meet a Deaf person once -- say, to chat for 2 minutes at a conference -- the next time we meet, we hug. We know each other! Deaf culture is very huggy, affectionate, familial.

Generally, personal boundaries are much more permeable than in hearing (American) culture. The Deaf perspective on hearies is that they're cold.

Anyway, can explain a lot more if you're interested, will start there.

Whoodathought. I turn out to be Deaf. Culturally speaking, I mean.

Heh.

(Hey, I used to be def ... y'know, Chuck D and all that... )

OK, excuse me for a minute linkat will I ask these questions..

Now keep in mind Soz, these are just random questions

Sometimes I be somewhere and don't realize someone is speaking to ME, I'm concentrating, or just not paying attention.
Sometimes I'll look up and the other person is giving me a strange look. Other times I'm sure I've walked away without knowing someone was talking to me.

Of course you can explain to someone you are deaf if you look up and see them talking to you, but do you wonder if someone was trying to talk to you, and you weren't looking, and just walked off? I mean, you can't be looking around ALL the time, especially in a crowd.

Excuse me. Miss? Miss? MISS?

How else do the Deaf see hearies as cold? I've heard that, but don't know why.
Maybe because we can hear, we aren't always giving the entire visual attention to a person, so it looks odd to you?

I tend to stand pretty far back from people, because I like to see their entire body when I talk to them.

Someone I know who works in a store once said he doesn't care for taking care of deaf people, because in his view the Deaf people will barge into a conversation he's having with another customer, and will be more aggressive and pushy.
Now I can't speak to that, just what I heard.

Oh! And the most important question I have......How do you know when it's safe to fart?



This is interesting to me. I don't know if you've read other posts of mine, but not everyone (like me) feels hearing is all it's cracked up to be.
Music basically bothers and annoys me, and I much prefer silence, unless I'm having a conversation.
All I hear now are my fingers on the keyboard. I could go days like this.

if your five minutes early your on time,
if your on time your late

First, Linkat, feel free to tell us to take this elsewhere if it's your preference.

I've certainly had the yelling thing happen to me, though by definition it's something that probably happens more than I am aware of.

One thing is that while I can't be looking around all the time in terms of 360 degrees, I constantly am taking the temperature of the crowd. That is, if someone is yelling at me behind me, I won't hear that person, but heads will start turning, I'll note the trend, and I'll turn in that direction too to see if it's anything I need to know. Usually catch things pretty quickly that way.

(Drove a former boyfriend crazy, though, that every time he looked at something, I'd look too.)



That's part of it, but a small part. (My husband is now completely used to being looked at while talking and gets all discombobulated if someone isn't looking at him -- he'll stop until they're finished. Kid's the same way, I have to remind her it's OK to talk to other people if they're not looking at her.)

It's much more cultural rather than the pure logistics of dealing with the hearing world. The stuff I said above. Do you usually hug someone you have met once before? Or invite that person -- who you've met once before -- to stay at your house when he's in town?

90% of deaf people have hearing parents, and until recently those parents usually didn't learn how to sign. (It's still rare, but, thankfully, less rare.) Deaf people have historically found their family amongst other Deaf people, rather than the people they are related to by blood. Hence, there is a much closer and more familial relationship with anyone who belongs to the group than with most hearing cultures. (The rub is proving you belong to the group, can go into that more later.)

I'm bi-cultural -- was hearing until I was 13, was hard of hearing for a while after that, then deaf for a while after that, and only became Deaf in my mid-20's. Well, able to be Deaf when I wanted, it's always been a bi-cultural thing. So my perspective is both us and them. As us -- hearing perspective -- I have gotten very annoyed at the boundary transgressions and lack of politesse displayed by Deaf people. As them -- Deaf perspective -- I feel so at home and welcomed and relaxed in a Deaf environment. When I go straight from that to a hearing environment, I think hearing people are really snooty and annoying.



Lots of cultural things there, plus logistical ones. For one, baseline in Deaf culture to get someone's attention is to wave your hand or tap them on the shoulder, no matter what. The logistical component to that is it's the only way to get into a conversation when two people are looking at each other. They're not going to notice you hovering politely a la hearing people.

The cultural component is that among Deaf people, if you do that and the person whose attention you're trying to get is busy, they'll a) ignore you completely, or b) say "I'm busy now, later." That response is expected. The waving or tapping is not rude, it's just "I want to talk to you now, are you available?" (When I was student teaching at a Deaf institute, I'd spend the whole time I was talking to one student being poked on the shoulder by another student who was waiting his turn to talk to me about something; for his part, he was chatting with someone else with his free hand, expecting that I'd get his attention when I was available. I tuned it out, part of compartmentalizing different kinds of communication.)

Deaf culture is very blunt. Us perspective -- rude. Them perspective -- straightforward and not wasting time with pointless pretension.

I've very much enjoyed the diversion. Thank you Chai and Soz.

Back to the original topic.

One of the mantras that my mother thumped into my bones was, "Never spend other people's time or other people's money." I'm inclined to rank the habitually tardy with pickpockets and con men.

Most of Mr. Noddy's family--four generations worth--is composed of the chronically late. They might leave home on time, but have no qualms about making lengthly detours. I'm talking about ETA's of 2:00 and actual arrival between 4:30 and 6:30.

I can accept a flexible ETA of "Early Afternoon" or "Late Afternoon". I'm not obsessed with punctuality as long as I've been given wiggle room to make my own While Waiting Plans.

I feel that they are making clear statements that in their world, their time is much more important than my time. Mr. Noddy assures me that I'm taking their lateness personally. I'm not sure how else I could take it.

Fortunately I'm always reading a book and can pick up a book on very short notice. I also keep collections of crossword puzzles available to while away my waiting time.

If the Impending Visitors are habitually late, I have no qualms about continuing an involved project and letting Mr. Noddy take care of the "Howdy, how are you" stage of the visit.

I'm rather dubious about the existence of an afterlife, but I take a certain amount of delight in thinking about the untold years my tardy visitors may spend in limbo waiting for someone to make a decision about their eternal destination.

Wow.

Some of this goes on in hearing culture too, the waiting in polite hover and not being noticed vs the buttinto conversation thing, lots of things going on there without adding hearing difficulty to it.

These things compound with other interpersonal matters, soon a thicket to cross.

One thing I started to say but didn't finish is that in Deaf culture, the "I want to talk to you, are you available?" question is answered with a), b) or c), "Yes, I'm available", indicated by the person whose attention is being sought by looking at the attention-seeker. A hearing person will look at the attention-seeker even if he or she is still currently busy -- but the look + attention, in and of itself, will be taken by the Deaf person as a go-ahead.

I had to lay down strict rules about that at my center as it was one place where bi-culturalism got me all muddled. I'd be in the middle of something, a (Deaf) staff member would poke his or her head in my office to see if I was available, I'd look to see what was going on (while still in the middle of something), this would be taken as "I'm available, go ahead" (when it was really "Did I see something moving? What was it?") he or she would be off and running, I'd still be in the middle of something, I'd try to interrupt, they were still mid-story, (a definite weakness of mine is knowing how to cut in), the thing I was in the middle of (tty call, IM, report) would get more pressing... etc.

So I established that they had to first ask, "Are you busy?" and get an answer before plunging in. Very hearing of me, but oh well.

I'm not a fan of late.
In fact, I hate being late, and am not really patient with people who are late.
And I hold grudges about late.
Big grudges.

But ... I have some friends from the Caribbean who have been trying to teach me about Caribbean time. I'm not doing very well with it. I've tried to learn to arrive later, but it's somehow painful.

Case in point. My friend P's 40th birthday party.
Her husband called me. Be at resto at 6.
hmmmm, I'll have to arrange to get off work early to be there at 6, but o.k.

I arrive at 6. Two people I recognize arrive at 6:30. Hubby told them 6, but they know he's always late. We go to the fireplace/bar area. A few more people arrive at 7. Hubby told them 7. The next batch of folks arrive at 7:30. Hubby told them 7, but they know he's always late. The next batch arrives at 8. Hubby told them 7, but they know he's always at least an hour late. The early group, we're a bit snozzled, and I'm feeling a need to sober up to drive home - because I have to go in early to make up the time I took off to get there at 6.

P and hubby arrive at ... 9. Hubby - when did I tell you to be here? 6? I should have called you back and told you 7. 7?

The same couple arrived at a Sunday bbq I hosted - with an invitation of "any time after 5, but I'm serving the main meal at 7" at 10:30 p.m. Everyone else had gone home, I'd cleaned up and was getting ready for bed.

I'm really trying to get the hang of it, but I still think 6 p.m. means 6 p.m. No more than 15 minutes late without a call. Thank you.

I will leave arranged meeting places if people don't show up on time. Unless someone else is pressuring me to stay. Which also annoys me.

Well, with clients, if there weren't there within fifteen minutes of the time, my bus/partner would agitate to leave and we soon would (she had the workmobile). On my own I'd wait, oh, 35 minutes, as things happen.

on meeting someone for lunch, I'll get a table if I can, if it is a place that will give you a table when you await a person, and order not just water but something substantial like an appetizer. I might even mention that to the person at the desk. I almost never don't have something to read or a place to look in a room. I might even prefer it to the oncoming meeting.

Well, that was before. Now many of us have cell phones. Given that the person isn't out of range, which happens in my neck of the woods.

Which brings up an original point. Toronto, New York, Westwood, are different than simple Eureka in redwood country. I assume mores move in other places too.

After waiting for someone for 15 minutes, I always call them. I don't mind waiting 30 minutes. I'm patient.

Except in doctors' offices. 31 minutes, and I'm outta there. I stop at the desk and tell them they'll need to reschedule me for a time when there won't be a long wait.

If I'm going to be more than 10 minutes late to someplace myself, I call and let them know I'm on my way. Seems like I'm always pushing the limits, though.

Like Eva, I'm always late. Chronically. My father is, too; my mother wasn't.

Everyone knows I'm always late; it's also pretty much what I tell them from the start (at the latest the first time it happens). I've given up on changing - it's me. Perhaps I'm an orphaned Caribbbean or Deaf kid ;-).

I gotta admit that, if someone who's known me for a long time, whom I've told often enough that I'm always late, still comes exactly on time when (s)he knows full well I'm always late 10-20 minutes, and then complains about it, I don't feel all too guilty; in fact, I get a little impatient. I mean, hello!

I also see it as a kind of part of a trade-off, when I look at other people. With me, you know I'm always late; but I'm also always there. You need me, call me and I'll make time. No need to schedule an appropriate occasion next week Thursday 2 PM.

In return, I have nooo problem waiting for someone else, or it would have to be some appointment I'm particularly nervous about or something. A "keycord kid", I always have a book with me and some papers too; plus, I dont have any trouble enjoying myself even just looking around me. And I do try to always arrange to meet at a cafe or someplace, rather than on the street or in a restaurant.

I'm also finding the digressions on Deaf culture very interesting by the way, thanks Soz & Chai. It almost (almost, that is - I cant imagine not being able to listen to music anymore, or to the sounds of the city, people talking other languages, a train, a tram) makes me jealous. It sounds like home! Like the home culture I'd be looking for.

Well, the interrupting thing would annoy me. But the relaxed concept of time and formal requirements ('why waste your life being punctual and formal); the relaxed attitude towards interpersonal relationships, conventions; the physical close-upness and personalness, the hospitality; ahh, sounds like nimh culture, when I relax, that is.

I'd almost start learning ASL ... (but I got to master Hungarian first. Also, dumb question: does each language have its own ASL or is it international?)

Yes! Thanks Soz, that was very educational, and enjoyable.

Noddy, my thoughts on lateness are very similar to yours.

When I'm expecting someone to call me, see me, etc at a particular time, and they don't until hours later, frankly, I lose respect for them.

This is because they are say to me that I was not important enough to them to keep their word.

That's right, when you tell someone you will be there at 2pm, and wander in at 4:30, you have broken your word to me.

15 minutes is no big deal, but after that, I start getting annoyed.
Especially today, with cell phones, there really insn't an excuse not to call and explain where you are. BTW, it better be something like caught in traffic, if you're just getting around to getting dressed at home, my response would likely be.....

"You know what, I thought you'd be here by before now, and you're just getting up. Tell you what, let's call the whole thing off. I can't sit around any longer waiting on you, since it'll probably be a few more hours since until you get there. I could have been doing something else this whole time, but instead I've gotten nothing accomplished because I've been waiting around for you. You've wasted my time and I really can't waste any more."

A couple of my husbands friends do something I think is really strange, and I also think his response is strange.....

Kirk will say to me "Annie is coming over later"
I'll ask "What time"
Kirk: "I don't know, she said she'll come over later today"
Me: "Well, what TIME later today? I mean, are we supposed to just sit here and wait? What if we want to make love? What if we want to start a project that involves going out?"
Then I'll ask him to call Annie to get a time.
It would to be he would say "It's no big deal, I'm sure she'll be here by 6"

Well, so we basically what I call put our life on hold for this person who is going to show up at some vague future time.

Before you know it, it's 8pm.

Finally Kirk would call and "Annie" would say "Oh yeah, I ended up doing whatever, I'm not going to make it tonight"

IMO their selfishness and thoughtlessness let's me know they don't consider me to be of any importance.

If it wasn't for me, I think Kirk wouldn't think twice about it, but after situations like this occured a few times, you can be sure he's bypassed the wrath of chai by asking when they will be here.

I mean, that's only common sense.

I think Chai Tea's covered that - it's respect.

Part of how I show respect to people - at work, and in my personal life - is by respecting the fact that they are busy.

If people are consistently late to something we've planned together, I take that as a signal that there is not mutual respect between us. I consider that before I make future plans with them - or have future interactions with them.

(The "A" in "ASL" is "American" [the rest is "Sign Language"], and there are signed languages everywhere, some with connections to each other but most quite distinct from each other. Some countries have a more robust Deaf culture than others, I dunno anything about Hungary/ Budapest.)

10 minutes, fine, 20 at a push.If its a doo with only a few people then guests should arrive near the stated time as its obvious if they are late.
If its a big party then it doesnt really matter too much.

Kids partys-The guests should defiantely be there on time,what excuse does a kid have for being late other than the parents are bad time keepers.The party should start at the staed time or as soon as there are enough kids to play a game.

The people who are late are the ones missing out, why should others suffer.

Wait, thats kind of weird isn't it? The jump from one to the other, I mean? I mean, let me break this down, if you will.

Part of how you show that you have respect for somebody is by being punctual.

So when they aren't punctual, you infer that they must not have respect for somebody?

That sounds like a non-sequitur to me; it implies that everyone must work the same way you do.

But they might show respect in wholly other ways. In fact, it's well possible that you might be expressing yourself in some ways that they would never do, because it wouldn't fit into their concept of respectfulness.

Isn't interacting with other people and, in fact, respecting other people, also about acknowledging that they have different ways of expressing themselves, etc - different ways of showing respect, too?

It would at least be logical if you said: If people are consistently late, I take that as a signal that they are not willing to abide by my standards of what constitutes being respectful, and I can't or will not deal with that.

That would be the honest translation of what you are saying.

But it's not logical to infer that, if they don't show respect the way you do, they must not respect you - that sounds like a basic intercultural communication lesson to me (and cultures, of course, come in all kinds - microcultures, somebody here called it).

Hehheh - here's to Caribbeans teaching intercultural communication skills!