No to gay priests

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I read in the paper today that the new Pope has banned gay men from the priesthood as he thinks it will effect how they do their job.
I think I remember it saying half the priesthood are gay and this wil wipe out the church.

How crazy is this idea?!
Didnt God make people, therefore he made gay people and we are all equal etc etc.
How can the Vatican ban gays from wanting to dedicate their lives to God.
It reeks of control and an intolerence of gay people!

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material girl wrote:

I read in the paper today that the new Pope has banned gay men from the priesthood as he thinks it will effect how they do their job.
I think I remember it saying half the priesthood are gay and this wil wipe out the church.

How crazy is this idea?!
Didnt God make people, therefore he made gay people and we are all equal etc etc.
How can the Vatican ban gays from wanting to dedicate their lives to God.
It reeks of control and an intolerence of gay people!

Well this is certainly an un-odd twist of events. To some degree the Catholic Church has been banning gays from the Priesthood since day one; however it seems to work somewhat along the same lines as the U.S. military policy of "Don't ask, don't tell." There have been gay Priests for my entire life but the Vatican itself would never openly acknowledge this since homosexuality is against the Roman Catholic religion itself. I believe it is even grounds for being ex-communicated (not 100% sure on that). I sincerely doubt that it will really change the already dwindling rolls of membership all that much.
Currently there are those who support the Vatican no matter what, those who are tepid in their support and those who want Benedict to change everything...Give us gay Priests, female Priests, married Priests, Priests living in sin, meat on Fridays, sex on Tuesdays (never get that one to pass), new sky blue clerical collars, velcro robes, better looking miters, etc. etc. Most gays who are solidly against the ignorant stand of the Catholic Church (and others as well, take a look at Methodists) have already left the church.
Some of this may be the Vatican's way of handling the sex abuse matters...of course they ignore the Priests going after little girls, or the Priests going off and fornicating with married women. Religious intolerance...ain't it a pip?

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Dont ask, dont tell.How hypocritical/ironic is that!!

I hope the Vatican isnt implying that only gay peopel abuse chidren!!

I cant work out if they are really blinkered and controlling or .... nope, they are.They are trying to control peoples sexuality when its their very boss who created the sexuality.

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The church places a distinction between urges and actions, as I understand it. You may have urges to have sex with a same-sex partner, but aren't committing the act of homosexuallity until you act on those urges. So, to say that a gay man cannot be a priest is not a huge stretch, considering that he would have already broken his vow of celebacy and the gay aspect is then an additional problem for the church. Honestly, why do you care about the rules of an organization to which you don't belong? It's not as if you are being forced to join the Catholic Church.

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Alice,

Actually, I like how you put that. Good for you girl.

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I think you are off a bit there Alice.

Quote:

... The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers ...

Pope approves barring gay seminarians

As to why one that does not belong to the Catholic church should care.... I began to care about what they do once they began to throw their weight into the politics of the US.

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AliceInWonderland wrote:

Honestly, why do you care about the rules of an organization to which you don't belong? It's not as if you are being forced to join the Catholic Church.[/quote

I find it completely hypocritical that they dont except a person that God(their boss) made.
If God excepts everybody why doesnt the religion that serves him except them?!
I dont belong to their organization but I have no doubt they wouldnt hesitate to try to convert me given the chance.

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When the church can PROVE that people make the choice to be gay, then they can start laying down laws about them.

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A couple of things.

Firstly, Material Girl, your argument is a tad bit flawed. The christians believe that god made people, but that he also embued them with free will. God doesn't embrace the sins that man commits while under the sway of that free will, so the church can therefore argue it's stance against homosexuals being accepted to the clergy. This is, of course, believing that homosexuality is a choice, and not chemically induced. (In order to sidestep future bashing, please note that this is not my stance.)

The church should prove that homosexuality is a choice? To them it's always been the other way around. This is how things work in a faith-based religion. They will believe what they will believe and leave it up to everyone else to do the proving. So prove it isn't a choice.

Also, this step shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone, given the shadey controversy with Priests molesting boys left and right. They had to do something to stem this supposed trend, and while this might not have been the best first step in their screening process, at least it's a step.

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Questioner wrote:

The church should prove that homosexuality is a choice? To them it's always been the other way around. This is how things work in a faith-based religion. They will believe what they will believe and leave it up to everyone else to do the proving. So prove it isn't a choice.
.

Then YOU should have to prove that you are naturally a heterosexual. Seriously, no one can prove that God didn't make gay people gay. Don't you think that before shunning them and condeming them to hell there should be proof that they are sinning?

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Bella Dea wrote:

Questioner wrote:

The church should prove that homosexuality is a choice? To them it's always been the other way around. This is how things work in a faith-based religion. They will believe what they will believe and leave it up to everyone else to do the proving. So prove it isn't a choice.
.

Then YOU should have to prove that you are naturally a heterosexual. Seriously, no one can prove that God didn't make gay people gay. Don't you think that before shunning them and condeming them to hell there should be proof that they are sinning?

Please read my post closely and note that I stated this isn't my stance on things. Also, read a bit more and you'll see that I stated that this was the church's stance. This is the way it works. They have the faith, therefore the burden of proof must lie with those who take issue with what is decreed.

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Questioner wrote:

Please read my post closely and note that I stated this isn't my stance on things. Also, read a bit more and you'll see that I stated that this was the church's stance. This is the way it works. They have the faith, therefore the burden of proof must lie with those who take issue with what is decreed.

No, the burden of proof always lies with the prosecution and since that would be the church in this scenario, I'd say it was their job to come up with the proof.

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Questioner wrote:

A couple of things.

Firstly, Material Girl, your argument is a tad bit flawed. The christians believe that god made people, but that he also embued them with free will. God doesn't embrace the sins that man commits while under the sway of that free will(WHY IS HOMOSEXUAL SEX CONSIDERED A SIN), so the church can therefore argue it's stance against homosexuals being accepted to the clergy(IF THE CLERGY IS GAY THEN WOULD THEY HAVE A PROBLEM EXCEPTING THEM). This is, of course, believing that homosexuality is a choice, and not chemically induced. (In order to sidestep future bashing, please note that this is not my stance.)

The church should prove that homosexuality is a choice(THEY NEED TO PROOVE HETROSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE)? To them it's always been the other way around. This is how things work in a faith-based religion. They will believe what they will believe and leave it up to everyone else to do the proving. So prove it isn't a choice.

Also, this step shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone, given the shadey controversy with Priests molesting boys left and right(MOLESTERS MESS WITH KIDS, NOT GAY PEOPLE). They had to do something to stem this supposed trend, and while this might not have been the best first step in their screening process, at least it's a step.[/quote

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Bella Dea wrote:

No, the burden of proof always lies with the prosecution and since that would be the church in this scenario, I'd say it was their job to come up with the proof.

Agreed. However, that isn't the case, most likely will never be the case. Also remember that in part the church is the defendant in this instance, as they're trying to do something, anything to offset the accusations of child abuse by clergy.

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Questioner, I am curious to know which religion (if any) you prefer? You don't sound like a typical Christian (too much logic)....

I agree that the church will never "bend". But that's one of the things that's wrong with it. It refuses to accept that maybe, somewhere along the way, some guy made a mistake and now we are all living by a mistake, rather than Gods word.

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Bella Dea wrote:

I agree that the church will never "bend".

Well we dont want a church full of benders now, do we.

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material girl wrote:

(WHY IS HOMOSEXUAL SEX CONSIDERED A SIN),

You're asking the wrong person there. I honestly have no idea why it would be labeled as such, but there is a rather strong debate among the numerous different christian religious organizations about this very subject.

material girl wrote:

IF THE CLERGY IS GAY THEN WOULD THEY HAVE A PROBLEM EXCEPTING THEM

Or they'd find a better way to hide it. I think the underlying goal here is for the church to weed out people that it believes would be harmful to it's self-image. Thus they associate all homosexuals with child molesting. Bit of a stretch, isn't it?

material girl wrote:

THEY NEED TO PROOVE HETROSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE

Again, as with any faith-based belief, they insist that others prove them wrong. As backwards as this may seem, this belief is at the heart of every major un-provable religion. They believe in something that can't be proved, based on an unproven list of tales. Why would they suddenly now become concerned about proving anything? Therefore it's up to Science to prove to them that they are wrong in this instance, instead of the other way around.

material girl wrote:

MOLESTERS MESS WITH KIDS, NOT GAY PEOPLE

Exactly. This wouldn't be the first time they church has overreacted to a situation and made a hiddeous and rather obvious error.

Bella Dea wrote:

Questioner, I am curious to know which religion (if any) you prefer? You don't sound like a typical Christian (too much logic)....

I've mentioned this a few other places. I was a christian for about 26+ years, involved heavily with several churches including teaching bible school, helping with church administration etc etc. About 2 years ago I came to the revelation (after asking several pointed questions and being blown off by the elders) that the religion I had devoted myself to was flimsy at best. And since I wasn't getting any answers from the church, I left it and started looking for my own answers. Still in that process now.

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Sorry, I don't read a lot of stuff in the Religion forum so I didn't know.

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Bella Dea wrote:

Sorry, I don't read a lot of stuff in the Religion forum so I didn't know.

Oh, no worries.

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Religion is so flimsy.
im happy to listen about all religions but I dont want to live my life by them.
I can make up my mind for myself.
If i can see that God didnt interveen when hundreds were dying in a Tsunami then I have to think, hmmm, maybe he dont exsist.

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No to gay priests

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