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Post-war Iraq

 
 
husker
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2003 04:29 pm
It's starting to bug me a little about the behavior of the Iraqi people towards the property - hospitals and schools. Are they doing it because of the Cameras and Press or they really feel that liberated from Saddam that they must destroy and loot everything.
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2003 04:46 pm
Looting is normal when there is no authority, or when the authority is too lenient. I don't which of the two applies in Baghdad at the moment. Sooner or later the Americans are going to put a halt to it, and they gotta be extra-careful about how they do it.

The instant massive reactions are not thought ones, precisely because it is mass psychology-behavior we are witnessing.

Looters are looters, they don't care who they loot, and hardly what they loot. Beware of those who say: "Hey, they're looting the French Embassy, the UN headquarters, etcetera, because they consider them traitors". They loot because there is availability, that's all.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2003 08:40 pm
Americans want trouble in Iraq? Americans got trouble in Iraq:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,934500,00.html
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2003 09:53 pm
Tartarin,

Have you posted this link on the US UN Iraq thread? It's very apropos.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 06:56 am
I try to stay away from "trouble" threads, Lola! Please do so if you wish -- but it's almost out of date by now!

"Looting is normal when there is no authority, or when the authority is too lenient." Fbaezer: Enron, Arthur Andersen, El Paso Energy and many others came to mind as I read that!
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fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 12:37 pm
fbaezer wrote:
Looting is normal when there is no authority, or when the authority is too lenient...
Looters are looters, they don't care who they loot, and hardly what they loot. Beware of those who say: "Hey, they're looting the French Embassy, the UN headquarters, etcetera, because they consider them traitors". They loot because there is availability, that's all.


Here is today's chronicle of Rubén Cortés, a Cuban-Mexican journalist in Baghdad. I trust Rubén. I know how "my mate" works. And he was the catcher in my baseball team (my translation):

Baghdad: The Mother of All Chaos

Armed guys who stop you in the streets and rob you aiming at you with a bazooka, a house of Allah transformed in a guerrilla bunker, a van of foreign journalist that is assaulted right in front of US soldiers' noses, a guy who charges 10 dollars to kill whoever you want, because "at the end, he will be one more person killed by the Americans"...
One day after Saddam Hussein's fall, Baghdad is the mother of all disasters and a place more unsafe than the open combat zones.
After a morning and an afternoon marked by astronomical pillages, ranging from a lamb chop to five IBM computers conducted by one sole character in a supermarket cart, as nicht fell a suicide bomber killed a marine and wounded 22 other people at a US army checkpoint.
The attack was just a stone-throw away from Palestine Hotel, where many journalist sojourn, most of them sleeping in the lobby as in a lost town's bus station.
Hours before, another US soldier died and 20 of his comrades were wounded in a shooting around a sunni mosque in the capital's downtown.
The robbery Iraqis have condemned the most, was of the ambulances and medicine boxes, taken from AL Kindi Hospital, one of the biggest in this city. Doctors and paramedics could do nothing. They asked the Americans for help, but they refused to intervene.

10 dollar murders

"You know, this is not the Iraqi people, what you see is the trash, decent people are locked in their homes... these are the same debris Saddam used for his marches and now that he's defeated, they piss on his portrait", explains Baker Addoum, owner of a small travel agency.
"A man who worked with me as a driver, a couple of years ago, came to me yesterday and offered to kill whoever has dishonoured me, and blame it on the Americans. You know how much he asked for? 10 dollars. That's the situation we're living in", says Baker.
"Saddam was garbage, but this didn't happen with him; no one broke the law because punishment was severe: for stealing some candy in the market you could go seven years to jail".
If one wanders through the streets, one can almost understand Baker. Iraqi civilians, armed with Russian RPG-7 bazookas have installed checkpoints in some streets and force vehicles to stop and the passengers to give them all what they have, under death menaces.
The van of a German television team was assaulted by four armed men, who took even the cassettes.
Few shops dare to open, and those who do impose foreigner golden prices: three dollars for a piece of bread with goat best, one dollar for a glass of tea.
Luck for some journalists is that those incoming from Jordan bring water, chocolates and bread, and share them generously.
It has been worthless that many imams, specially those in the centuries-old Rashid street mosque, urged they feithful not to take what does not belong to them, because the Qu'uaran condemns the thieves and to rob is a offense to Allah, the Merciful.
Abdel Rahman, a 65 year old driver, after leaving the Rashid mosque commented:
"No more Saddam, and that's very good. But it seems we have no future now".
-"Because of the thieves?"
-"Those are our thieves. I mean the Americans".


Anarchy and revenge

If things continue this way, and the Americans don't impose control, the number of dead will grow and anarchy will take its grip in a city that was craddle to civilization and no one respects any more.
Small clusters of Iraqi resistance remain, but the common citizen is living in the euphoria of first felt freedom, after 24 year of ruthless dictatorship. For the moment, that sentiment of happiness and freedom has become a special revenge against Saddam Hussein's regime. Too bad it has also become freedom to loot and to destroy.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 12:46 pm
Sounds right to me, fbaezer. Thanks for doing the translation!
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 08:59 pm
Sofia wrote:
A representative gov of Iraq.

Now that Iraq will not be robbed of their riches by Saddam, they can afford to pay for it themselves. They will be a wealthy nation.

Hope they will tip the US for our trouble.


The poor always get robbed of their riches by someone. I'm glad it's no longer a viscious, racist dictator but I certainly don't believe all will be rosy for the people in Iraq now. *cough...cough...Afghanistan...cough*
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:13 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Welcome Dafdaf and thanks for a great question!

I agree with you and LittleK, with Blatham and IronLionZion, with Dyslexia (as usual) and with anyone else who believes there's trouble ahead (Kofi Annan knows this and has stated that he'd like the UN to be in there for humanitarian relief, not for the purpose of taking part in an interim administration); anyone who'd like to see the UN strengthened, not weakened; anyone who believes insta-demockracy is not a smart idea; anyone who believes the US hasn't a clue about Iraq and will likely mess up; anyone who believes that we won't just stay in Iraq, we'll stay in the ME; anyone who hopes Iraq will be Bush's downfall.


Certainly is refreshing to be able to say i fit into all of those categories Smile.

The UN is still growing, and will need to be a lot stronger before it can be in the position to put it's foot down and Force someone like Geaorge Bush not to wage war. In the mean time, all the resolutions ignored and general bickering just go further in undermiming the UN and tearing it apart.

Oh, and i sincerely hope this war will be the downfall of Bush. Sooner or later we're going to have reprisals for some of these shows of strength and we could be facing a WW3.

Also, I know many people aren't a fan of Michael Moore (I think he's a funny, well informed guy, but certainly no genius) but one part of his book "Stupid White Men" suddenly feels particularly relevent. He writes a letter to Koffi Anan (my apologies for the spelling) asking for help - His country has been taken over by an unelected tyrant who has assumed power and is running amock.

It's interesting how that's a democratic election, whereas anywhere else in the world it'd be considered a koo....

(not sure if it's because it's 4am or what, but i've forgotten how to spell. Could someone please tell me how to spell 'koo'?)
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:23 pm
fbaezer - My daughter's coming in from Mexico City tonight. I emailed her that chronicle by Ruben Cortes, and she had already read it. She'll be in late, but I'll call her. Thanks so much for the translation.

Looting is to be expected - well, yes. But surely the army should have been prepared to do some police action. They must have expected it, too, and know what it can lead to. I heard nervous Rumsfeld complaining about the newspaper coverage of it. He so obviously wanted to be congratulated on his win, and here these nasty journalists were asking questions.

Who should govern Iraq? I'm willing to bet that Rumsfeld thinks it should be him.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:24 pm
Sofia wrote:
c.i.--

Your first two assumptions are correct.
I'd like to amend the third to read, "Iraq will make some type of remuneration for the cost the US suffered to free them."

This is not important, or expected, but would be nice. It would defray our costs for the war. Maybe a sweet deal on oil prices for a while....


"The rich get richer while the poor get poorer". Personally i'd like to pay more for petrol, coffee, fruit and all other exports of the poorer nations because things just ain't fair the way we are.

I also think it's bizaare to be wanting remunerations when it was the west that subjected Saddam to the people. Your president of the time, and our prime minister (Maggie T) backed his rule. Later Iraq invaded an oil exporting country so was fought back by the US. The regimee wasn't changed though as the people were promised because once Kuwait was freed, the oil was available again, and objectives complete. So thousands of Iraqis died in the uprising they were promised support for. We bomb them every week for a decade before eventually come back to overthrow the regime. And now we ask to be paid for the service?

I feel that instead of asking for our wage packet, we should repay the people for the damage we've done to the country - we break it, we pay for it.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:27 pm
Re: CALL ME A DREAMER !
I'm going a bit crazy with replies now - been back home from university a few days and got lagged behind.

Just had to bring this quote up again, it's absolutely spot on:
CodeBorg wrote:
Given that it was completely U.S. initiative and motivation, what is the difference between:
a) invading a country and stealing their oil to make it worthwhile, versus
b) liberating a country and having them "tip" us with oil, to show their appreciation for our "help"?


Should have seen my lil face start grinning and my head nodding as i read Smile.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 09:53 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
It'll cost the American taxpayers billions, and the lives of over 100 American military men and women. The family members and friends of the lost military and civilians will not see their loved ones again. The Iraqi's paid dearly for this war; over several thousands dead. The Brits also paid dearly, and they didn't even have to get involved.


Personally I'd put an initial estimate on the death toll in Iraq at 20,000-50,000 (i heard one alarmingly brief news piece, mentioning a thousand Iraq troops dying in one scuffle). Visiting the http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html census information, we can draw the following statistics:

US
Population - 280,562,489
Died in war ~ 100
% of pop. died - 0.0000356%

UK
Population - 59,778,002
Died in war ~ 100
% of pop. died - 0.0001672%

Iraq
Population - 24,001,816
Died in war ~ 30,000
% of pop. died - 0.1249905%
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2003 10:05 pm
Re: CALL ME A DREAMER !
trespassers will wrote:
CodeBorg wrote:
Despite how evil Saddam is, I don't recall the Iraqi people asking us to invade the country to "liberate" them. Therefore, I have a hard time thinking we did this as a favor to them.

Quite frequently, police respond in domestic violence incidents where the abused spouse has not "asked" for their help. Perhaps you think the police should stay out of those situations and allow those women to be beaten, bloodied and killed. I do not.


When was the US given the role of international policeman?
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John Webb
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 01:51 am
Many have still failed, or refuse, to recognise the real purpose of this invasion, which has been completely achieved. Coalition forces are now in total control of only one part of Iraq, all the OIL FIELDS!

To most normal human beings, what is now happening on the streets of Iraq is a sickening and avoidable disaster. The Administration, whatever they say, have remained true to their hidden agenda and have now achieved it. To such obscenities, human lives (apart from their own) are simply collateral damage.

For them, the golden rule is "divide, conquer and make lots of money". Current events prove it's success! Twisted Evil
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 07:17 pm
Quote:
The Bush administration took over Iraqi state television yesterday, replacing tributes to Saddam Hussein with conciliatory greetings from President Bush, the Pentagon and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

The shows were beamed onto Baghdad's Channel 3, one of the deposed government's frequencies. The Pentagon-controlled programming is part of a multimedia campaign to persuade Iraqis -- sometimes by using the abandoned infrastructure of Hussein's propaganda networks -- that their country is being liberated, not occupied, and that self-government and free enterprise are on the way.

"We need to convince Arab audiences, which are still skeptical but are beginning to see evidence of our intentions, that we are true to our word," a senior administration official said. "We are there to help Iraqis create their own new Iraq."

The administration launched the channel the day after Hussein's government collapsed and U.S. troops took control of Baghdad. U.S. officials said that within days, they hope to open a second television channel in Iraq featuring subtitled versions of the three major networks' evening newscasts, as well as PBS's "The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer" and Fox News Channel's hour-long politics show, "Special Report With Brit Hume."

Norman J. Pattiz, chairman of the Westwood One radio network and a member of the Broadcasting Board of Governors, said the new channel's mission will be to give Iraqis "an example of what a free press in the American tradition actually is."

CNN declined to have its newscasts included. "As an independent, global news organization, we did not think it was appropriate to participate in a U.S. government transmission," spokeswoman Christa Robinson said.


Washington Post
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 07:35 pm
With several days of chos and looting in Iraq, I wonder when this administration is going to take responsiblity for law and order. After all, they created this mess. c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 07:37 pm
Oh boy, PDiddie. Spin Central! We need to make internet contact.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 07:59 pm
I've been googling and collecting links to Iraq and have emailed the Middle Eastern Studies center at the University of Texas to see what they know about message centers, contact areas.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2003 08:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
With several days of chos and looting in Iraq, I wonder when this administration is going to take responsiblity for law and order. After all, they created this mess. c.i.


Watched a news report earlier today, talking to some of the US soldiers about the looting. They said they wish they could provide some policing, but 'there just aren't enough of us' and 'it wasn't what we were expecting we'd have to do'.

Were none of the geniuses behind this war clever enough to think this far ahead?
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