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Why eternal torment isn't a loving punishment

 
 
Tue 21 Nov, 2023 01:15 pm
A punishment can be loving or loveless. A loving punishment has the goal of making someone change his/her ways. For example, a loving parent would punish a child so he learns his lesson and changes. Now, it says in the bible that god is love, which means his actions are loving. His punishment should, therefore, also be loving.

But, if he condemns unsaved people to eternal torment in hell, then that's a loveless punishment. In order for torment in hell to be a loving punishment, it must be temporary (that is, it must last until those in hell finally repent and accept Jesus as their savior). That would make god like a loving parent whose goal is to torment people in hell to make them change their ways.
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izzythepush
 
  1  
Wed 22 Nov, 2023 03:35 am
@Mindwave,
Most of the Christian view of Hell comes from Buddhist teachings.

Hades is just the grave.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 27 Nov, 2023 10:18 am
@Mindwave,
In Humphry Clinker there is a conversation between Tabatha Bramble and a Scottish Theologian.

He said that 999,999,999 years would probably be enough time being punished in Hell for the most instransigent sinner, but a good woman like Miss Bramble would probably only spend about 4,000 years there.

Tabatha Bramble is not at all happy to hear this.
0 Replies
 
kjw47
 
  -3  
Thu 29 Feb, 2024 08:34 pm
@Mindwave,
God is love, not the sadist taught by blind guides teaching a literal eternal suffering. Those religions are darkness-RUN FROM THEM.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Thu 29 Feb, 2024 11:47 pm
@Mindwave,
Quote:
But, if he condemns unsaved people to eternal torment in hell, then that's a loveless punishment.


Only Satan, the BEAST and the false prophet suffer eternal torment in the eternal fire of Hell

The punishment for sin is 'DEATH' the eternal punishment for the unrepentant sinner is 'ETERNAL DEATH'.

The 'FIRST DEATH' is that of the body in which the spirit=mind develops, which spirit is the potential child of God, for flesh and blood cannot inherit His kingdom.

The eternal punishment for the unrepentant sinner is the 'SECOND DEATH', which is the death of the mind=spirit from which there is no return.

The mindless soul, which can never be destroyed is then cast back into the refining fires of life once again, where it is given a new body in which a new mind will develop in a more righteous society.

The scriptures equate the ‘MIND’ with the ‘SPIRIT’, in one place it is said, “You must love God with all your heart [body], with all your MIND, and with all your soul:” In another place it is said, “You must love God with all your body, with all your SPIRIT and with all your soul.”

Revelation 20, 10; Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and Sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown; and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 21, 8; But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

The eternal punishment for the unrepentant sinner.
kjw47
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Mar, 2024 06:21 pm
@The Anointed,
Eternal suffering is symbolism, not literal. God is not a sadist. He is love.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Mar, 2024 08:32 pm
@kjw47,
Quote:
Eternal suffering is symbolism, not literal. God is not a sadist. He is love.


There is no eternal suffering mate, only eternal death for the unrepentant sinners.

You are a triad being of Body, Soul and mind=spirit.

Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death. And all have sinned, and all must die once, then the mind =spirit goes off into judgement.

Although all have sinned and all must die the first death which is that of the body, not all will die the second death, which is that of the mind that has been imprinted into the living soul.

Revelation 21, 8; After all physical life forms on earth have been incinerated, as the Lord fortold through his prophet Zephania and the oceans of the earth have evaporated, it is then that ''THE SON OF MAN'' takes the throne of ''THE MOST HIGH IN THE CREATION,'' Then the Spirits of mankind are divided and the unrepentant cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practice magic, those who worship idols, and all liars are cast into the lake burning with fire and Sulphur, which is the second death.”

The wages for sin, ‘’ETERNAL DEATH’’ from which there is no return. Not eternal suffering, the eternal punishment is eternal death.

Ezekiel 18, 21-24; 21. “If an evil person stops sinning and keeps my laws, if he does what is right and good, he will not die; he will certainly live.
22. All his sins will be forgiven, and he will live, because he did what is right.
23. Do you think I enjoy seeing an evil person die?” asks the Sovereign Lord. “No, I would rather see him repent and live.

24. “But if a righteous person stops doing good and starts doing all the evil, disgusting things that evil people do, will he go on living? No! None of the good he did will be remembered. He will die because of his unfaithfulness and his sins.

All must die the first death, the death that the Lord is referring to here, is the second death, when the mind is divided from the lining soul, which mindless soul is then cast back into the refining fires of physical life once again and given a new body in which to develop a new mind in a more righteous society of mankind.
kjw47
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Mar, 2024 09:06 pm
@The Anointed,
Yes, eternal death.
God has already passed judgement on sin=death. All sin is acquitted at ones death, they do not go off into judgement.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Fri 1 Mar, 2024 09:48 pm
@kjw47,
Quote:
God has already passed judgement on sin=death. All sin is acquitted at ones death, they do not go off into judgement.


So says KJW47. Now let us hear what the Lord says. Hebrews 9, 27-28; Everyone must die once, and ‘’AFTER THAT’’ be judged by God. In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. [Not the sins of all, but the sins of many] He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.

How many on this forum alone do you think are waiting for Jesus to appear the second time.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 2 Mar, 2024 02:57 am
@kjw47,
kjw47 wrote:

Yes, eternal death.
God has already passed judgement on sin=death. All sin is acquitted at ones death, they do not go off into judgement.


The wages of sin may be death, but the hours are good and the perks are brilliant.
kjw47
 
  -1  
Sat 2 Mar, 2024 06:42 pm
@izzythepush,
The resurrection is to give individuals an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences around, until satan gets loosed for a little while to test their faith. Many will follow him revelation teaches, they will be judged for that and destroyed forever. The faithful ones will get their names written in Gods book of life. Then satan and Hades( grave) and death will all be destroyed. Gods kingdom rule will be forever.
What an outstanding love God has to do this for those who rejected his will in this satan ruled system.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Sat 2 Mar, 2024 08:56 pm
@kjw47,
Quote:
The resurrection is to give individuals an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences around,


which resurrection and who are the individuals that you refer to.

Quote:
What an outstanding love God has to do this for those who rejected his will in this satan ruled system.
.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the abyss and a heavy chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent — that is, the Devil, or Satan — and chained him up for a thousand years. The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be let loose for a little while.

Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead.
Happy and greatly blessed are those who are included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for a thousand years.

At the close of the sixth day of one thousand years, the seventh day begins, the great Sabbath of one thousand years which Christ will rule.

The required number of Jews and Gentiles who are of the first resurrection and who will rule as Kings with Christ, will be given the same authority that Jesus received [See Rev 2. 26.] The authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots.

It is then that the war to end all wars begins the great tribulation that precedes the Lord’s Day of one thousand years, when the Lord will go out and fight for his chosen people as he has fought in times past. Then they will look to the one whom they pieced and mourn for him as one who mourn for an only child.

Isaiah 63. Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?”
“It is the LORD, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory.”
“Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The LORD answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground.”

It is after the thousand years are over and heavenly fire has incinerated all physical life forms on earth as for-told through the prophet Zephaniah, that all those who were not of first resurrection, will stand [as spirits having died the first death] before the judgement seat of our Lord [THE SON OF MAN]

Happy and greatly blessed are those who were included in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them, this is not referring to those, to who the Lord said, ‘’Away from me, you that are under God’s curse. Away to the eternal fire which God has prepared for the Devil and his angels.’’

Those who the Lord judges as unrepentant sinners, suffer the second and eternal death.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2024 01:21 am
@kjw47,
kjw47 wrote:

The resurrection


Whose? Marduk, Osiris, Wotan?

The sacrificed god was an established concept long before purported Biblical events.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2024 03:49 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Whose? Marduk, Osiris, Wotan?


You missed, Tammuz, Adonis, Attis, Zagreus, and Dionysus. Jesus wasn't a god who was resurrected, he was a man, the 'FIRST FRUITS' harvested from the body of mankind.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2024 07:42 am
@The Anointed,
Adonis wasn't a god either.

Brush up your Shakespeare.
0 Replies
 
kjw47
 
  -1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2024 07:31 pm
@izzythepush,
If so its just satan copying Gods will to mislead mankind
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2024 08:46 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The sacrificed god was an established concept long before purported Biblical events.


Much the same as Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt before biblical events, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep, in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 4 Mar, 2024 03:49 am
@kjw47,
What an intellectually bankrupt response.

The behaviour of JWs is more satanic than anything else.

Rebecca Vardy suffered extreme abuse.

kjw47
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Mar, 2024 03:13 pm
@izzythepush,
If she did it was at the hands of a sinful individual, not the religion. Not all who try to stand make it all the way. Solomon is the perfect example of that. Gods anointed king, served God faithfully for many years. He married foreign wives against Gods will and fell to false god worship at his end to please the wives.
That is one main reason why no mortal has the right to tell another-you are saved, they do not know, only the blind guides in false religions do it. They don't know who will fall.
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Mar, 2024 04:32 pm
@kjw47,
Quote:
That is one main reason why no mortal has the right to tell another-you are saved, they do not know, only the blind guides in false religions do it. They don't know who will fall.


Correct young fellow, you don't know who will fall, but you do know from God's WORD that ''MANY' will be saved by the blood of the Lamb, and many will fall and suffer the second and eternal death from which there is no return.
 

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