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Being a liberal without being an extremist.

 
 
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2021 05:13 pm
Extremism can exist on either side of the US political spectrum. Extremism is characterized when someone.

1) Adopts a single political narrative as an absolute unquestionable narrative.

2) Fails to accept that their are valid points in different perspectives, and that good people can hold them.

3) Ignores or rejects clear facts that don't fit their ideological narrative.

4) Attack people who question the narrative (whether they are part of the other extreme or not).

Can you be a liberal (or a conservative) without being an extremist? Of course you can. The problem is that no one seems to be even making an effort.

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Type: Question • Score: 4 • Views: 1,466 • Replies: 51

 
View best answer, chosen by maxdancona
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2021 05:19 pm
The biggest problem with liberals (both on this site and in society in general) is outrage.

Every problem is exaggerated. The fact is that the IPCC says sea level will rise 5 or 6 feet by 2100 in the worst case. The claim (made here) that it may rise 400 feet is extremism. An exaggeration of the fact is as false as a denial of a fact.

They do this because extremism thrives on outrage, it is not about accepting reality. It is most certainly not about finding solutions. It is about generating anger.

Mame
 
  10  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2021 05:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Another nitwit post. The only person outraged here is YOU. And you seem to be extremely outraged as you keep posting about outrage.

How would you know if someone were an extremist? Why would you even accuse anyone of that without backing it up with facts?

"Every problem is exaggerated." Really? That is an extremist statement coming out of YOUR mouth.

YOU thrive on outrage... you are obsessed with it. You thrive on accusations and labelling. You are obsessed with them, too. You, max, are an extreme, obsessive and outraged individual.

You also cannot accept reality. Many people have pointed out the flaws in your positions, time and time again, and yet you dredge them up and continue to spout your nonsense.

I have also seen no evidence of any 'anger' being generated. Anger at whom or what?

You are a shadow. You are transparent. You are a cartoon of a human being.

Stop accusing others of what you yourself feel... outrage.
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2021 05:29 pm
The demonization of "anti-vaxxers" is another case. There are a few ways that the outraged liberal narrative misses the facts.

1) They fail to acknowledge that the people who don't want the vaccine are human beings. This is a diverse group of people, not a cartoon stereotype, that includes indigenous people, religious values (yes, this includes diverse groups from Native Americans, to Orthodox Jews, to the Amish, to New Age religions).

2) They fail to acknowledge that they live in a free society where human rights makes it difficult to force people to get a vaccine against their will. Our Democracies by design give people leverage over government mandates.

3) They fail to acknowledge any middle ground. You can support the vaccine and get the vaccine without supporting vaccine mandates. And there are many different ways to instituting policies from voluntary reporting to full lock down. Creating a sensible policy doesn't have to live on the extremes.

4) The fail to acknowledge the cost of their policy. If someone says "I accept that firing people will cause hardships for workers and for the communities they serve", they have my respect even if they still support firing workers. They are accepting that their is a cost and saying it is still worth it.

Extremism is a fantasy world where there you can fire workers and impose harsh mandates to force conformity without any social cost. It denies the voices of Native Americans and African Americans who refuse the vaccine ...

The simple narrative is that everyone who refuses the vaccine is a "Stupid White Magatard". Other voices who don't want to be forced to get the vaccine are inconvenient, and so they are ignored.
hightor
 
  6  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 09:41 am
@maxdancona,
All these points have been raised by you before and addressed, criticized, and rejected by other members. Your points don't become more convincing with repetition.
Quote:
1) They fail to acknowledge that the people who don't want the vaccine are human beings. This is a diverse group of people, not a cartoon stereotype, that includes indigenous people, religious values (yes, this includes diverse groups from Native Americans, to Orthodox Jews, to the Amish, to New Age religions).

Everyone recognizes them as "human beings" – human beings who threaten public health measures designed to protect human beings. All the groups of people you mention have been stereotyped – it doesn't mean they aren't real human beings. Like the "liberal extremists" you're always referring to.
Quote:
2) They fail to acknowledge that they live in a free society where human rights makes it difficult to force people to get a vaccine against their will. Our Democracies by design give people leverage over government mandates.

Actually the "other side" can be accused of failing to acknowledge that rights entail responsibilities and obligations. We're talking about a few painless jabs in the arm, not circumcision, mandatory veganism, or vivisection. Most of the people complaining about the covid shots have been vaccinated for other diseases previously, some of which were mandatory to attend school.
Quote:
3) They fail to acknowledge any middle ground. You can support the vaccine and get the vaccine without supporting vaccine mandates. And there are many different ways to instituting policies from voluntary reporting to full lock down. Creating a sensible policy doesn't have to live on the extremes.

This conception of "middle ground" is effectively the same as admitting that vaccination isn't important. "We'd like to protect our population from a dangerous and unpredictable pandemic but if you don't want to get vaccinated you don't have to." Vaccine mandates wouldn't have been necessary if public health hadn't been politicized. Had Trump won re-election, I think the whole dynamic would be much different, with Fox news fully on board and prominent congressional Republicans touting the president's public health measures. Pockets of vaccine hesitancy would primarily occur among communities with some separation from the wider society (Hassidic communities, tribal populations, Amish, etc) as well as isolated individuals among the general population.
Quote:
4) The fail to acknowledge the cost of their policy. If someone says "I accept that firing people will cause hardships for workers and for the communities they serve", they have my respect even if they still support firing workers. They are accepting that their is a cost and saying it is still worth it.

Much the way the anti-vaxxers and free-to-choose crowd fail to acknowledge their refusal's cost to society. If someone were to say, "I accept that my refusal to get vaccinated may threaten the health of those close to me, contribute to the further spread of the pandemic, and add to the overcrowding of hospital facilities," I would not grant them my respect.
Quote:
It denies the voices of Native Americans and African Americans who refuse the vaccine ...

It doesn't "deny" anyone's voice; it questions the beliefs that underlie their resistance. You're not fooling anyone by singling out minority groups in a cheap attempt to embarrass the pro-vaccination side as crypto-racists. In reality your position is patronizing, painting these communities as ignorant and fearful when in reality huge numbers of them have been vaccinated.
Quote:
The simple narrative is that everyone who refuses the vaccine is a "Stupid White Magatard".

"Stupid White Magatard" is redundant. MAGAtard means a stupid white Trump supporter, nothing else. They are the main source of misinformation and the main promoters of active vaccine resistance. We would be remiss not to call them out.
Quote:
Other voices who don't want to be forced to get the vaccine are inconvenient, and so they are ignored.

Hardly – significant outreach has been made to those communities from state and federal public health services and, most effectively, from pro-vaccination activists within those communities.



maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 10:26 am
@hightor,
1) I am not accusing you of "crypto-racism" when I point out that minority groups (including Native Americans) have vaccine resistance. I am accusing your of a simplistic, one-sided narrative that ignores the difficult issues raised by a policy forcing vaccines on diverse groups of people.

2) I agree with you that there are equal difficulties on the other extreme.

3) There is nothing that I have written that talks about "middle position" or "centrism". That is not what this thread is about.

By all means take a strong position. Just be honest about it.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 10:34 am
@maxdancona,
For example. I believe very strongly in Free Speech. I probably take a harder line on Free Speech than anyone on this thread, and I am not ashamed of this. I believe in Free Speech not just as a Constitutional legal right, but also in freedom of expression as a social principle. A healthy democracy depends on a free exchange of ideas without consequence.

I give this as an example as an issue where I take a stronger position than almost anyone (we can start another thread if you want to discuss free speech). My point is that I admit, and take responsibility for the consequences of my position.

1. People attacking my position on Free Speech point out that I am defending Nazis. And they are right, Nazis have the right to free speech. This is an uncomfortable consequence of my ideological narrative, and I accept it.

2. People also point that Free Speech hurts minority groups (and as a multi-culturalist) this matters. People, particularly vulnerable people, can be hurt by free speech. I believe that the benefits of free speech outweigh the costs, and I will continue to defend my beliefs. But I will freely admit that people have a valid point

That is my point in this thread. You can have a strong belief. You can defend a strong belief. You can do all of this honestly without constructing a simple tidy one sided narrative that ignores difficult facts or other points of view.


0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 11:03 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am not accusing you of "crypto-racism" when I point out that minority groups (including Native Americans) have vaccine resistance.

Yes, you are. You are characterizing whole groups of racially and ethnically similar people as being opposed to vaccination merely to make yourself look like someone who is concerned about minority rights, as opposed to the "extreme liberals". You totally ignore the high rates of vaccination among some tribes and the fact that reticence among some African-Americans is due to misinformation and general alienation from the medical community. That's not an excuse, it's an explanation and suggests where work needs to be done. These are individuals who happen to be black, not defiant cult members marching in lockstep.

Quote:
I am accusing your of a simplistic, one-sided narrative that ignores the difficult issues raised by a policy forcing vaccines on diverse groups of people.I am accusing your of a simplistic, one-sided narrative that ignores the difficult issues raised by a policy forcing vaccines on diverse groups of people.

If that's all you had to say why not leave it at that?

I support having as many people vaccinated as possible. I never said that getting hesitant people to accept vaccination was easy. What I have said is that having one political party and its partisan media outlets spreading misinformation and actively encouraging resistance is a serious problem. I never denied that achieving general immunity through mass vaccination is difficult; I said that it is critical.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 11:28 am
@hightor,
This strikes me as funny. I am arguing that you are not being racist, and you are disagreeing with me. The fact is you are ignoring or explaining voices from these minority communities who choose not to be vaccinated. I attribute it to your political bias rather than any racism.

You do seem to be saying now that if Native Americans just understand what you already know to be true, that they will see the light and change to your opinion. This seems naïve at best; human beings don't work that way.

The reality is that there will be some human beings (of a diverse group of backgrounds and for a diverse set of reasons) who will choose to not get the vaccine no matter how much you impart your reasoning and understanding upon them. It looks like that number will be between 15 and 30% in almost all demographics.

Of course racism is a matter of intent, and you are the only person who can judge your own intent... so I don't know where that leaves us.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 12:13 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am arguing that you are not being racist, and you are disagreeing with me.

I'm not talking about whether you're accusing me, personally, of racism. I'm saying that you are engaging in a version of "playing the race card". You accuse people you label as "extreme liberals" of making light of the deaths of the unvaccinated and then you insinuate that they are, in effect, cheering the deaths of minority members. This is a disingenuous and transparent attempt to assume some sort of moral superiority.

Quote:
You do seem to be saying now that if Native Americans just understand what you already know to be true, that they will see the light and change to your opinion.

It has nothing to do with me, my knowledge, or my opinion. I'm describing the process being used by tribal activists to increase the rate of vaccination in their communities. I've explained this to you previously and, as usual, it was a waste of time because you simply reject anything that isn't included in your "ideological narrative©". These medical workers have been successful:
Despite obstacles, Native Americans have the nation’s highest COVID-19 vaccination rate

Quote:
(...) “The surprising success of Native Americans is encouraging, and I think it can serve as a model for broader vaccination efforts across the country,” said Latoya Hill, a senior analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation.

The rumors, conspiracy theories and bitter politics that have stalled out the national vaccination effort appear to have gained less currency among Indigenous people. (...)

Native Americans often live far from healthcare facilities. They face some of the worst poverty in the nation. And distrust of federal authorities runs deep.

For many experts — and even many tribal leaders — it was hard to imagine a group that would be more opposed to government-backed vaccines.

“There is going to be pushback to this vaccine,” Jonathan Nez, president of the Navajo Nation, told The Times in December.

In a survey last fall — before clinical trial results came out showing vaccines to be safe and effective — only 35% of Indian Health Service field workers said they would “definitely” or “probably” get shots.

But tribal leaders understood that vaccines were the clearest way out of the pandemic. They took to the radio and social media to promote them, warning that elders faced the greatest danger in communities vulnerable due to high rates of diabetes, heart disease and obesity.

They reminded people of the damage COVID-19 had already wrought — killing Native Americans at 2½ times the rate of white Americans — as well as of the smallpox epidemics of the 18th and 19th centuries that decimated many tribes.

“I framed it in the way that the virus was a monster, just like any other monster that has come to plague the Navajo people and wreak havoc,” Nez explained in an interview this week. “I told them that you’ve got to have armor, and the armor is the vaccine.”

By the end of 2020, as vaccines were becoming available, attitudes were changing. (...)

In a poll of Native Americans by the Urban Indian Health Institute, 75% of respondents said they were willing to get vaccinated. The primary motivation was “a strong sense of responsibility to protect the Native community and preserve cultural ways.” (...)

Aiming to preserve their cultural heritage, nurses also put Native-language speakers ahead in the line. Tribal leaders got shots early to demonstrate that the vaccines were safe.

Nurses drew on credibility from their family ties as they targeted more people to vaccinate. “The patient-nurse relationship is better established because of that trust,” said one nurse, Samantha Allen. (...)

Mame
 
  6  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 12:18 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

b]In a poll of Native Americans by the Urban Indian Health Institute, 75% of respondents said they were willing to get vaccinated.[/b] The primary motivation was “a strong sense of responsibility to protect the Native community and preserve cultural ways.” (...)



This is what's missing among the unvaccinated in the US. The feeling of a being part of a collective. More emphasis on individual freedoms and rights than of their community.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 12:24 pm
@hightor,
My point is very simple. You are pushing a simplistic, one-sided view that ignores reality.

The reality is complicated; there are competing interests of public health, consent, safety, and a person's control over their own bodies. And yes, there are addition issues of history and culture in a diverse society.

You can call that "playing the race card" if you want. But my point is clear, and it stated clearly in the opening post. You have said nothing to contradict it.

hightor
 
  7  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 12:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are pushing a simplistic, one-sided view that ignores reality.

I'm not "pushing" anything – you're the one who has started thread after thread on this topic. And then when someone points out your inconsistencies and lapses of logic you just let things cool down – and then open up a new thread.

You've never once admitted that vaccine hesitancy is wreaking havoc on our healthcare system, which is what drives the criticism of the willfully unvaccinated. You just change the subject instead, suggesting that we should refuse to treat obese people because heart disease is so prevalent. You say American Indians are vaccine hesitant and I produce a story which says the opposite. You ignore this and the open a new thread and make the same accusation. To which I reply with the same information. Then you fall back on the "it's very complicated and you're too simplistic" dodge. Must be about time for you to start a new thread. How about, "Extreme liberals are simplistic and one-sided"?
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 01:02 pm
@hightor,
Vaccine hesitancy is wreaking havoc on our healthcare system. I have never had trouble admitting that, the strain being put on hospitals is a fact.

The issue of vaccine mandates pots public health against personal autonomy. That is why it isn't a simple issue.

You make valid ponts on lots of issues. I have no problem saying that. That is the point of this thread.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 04:54 pm
@hightor,
It makes people like Izzy and Neptune really mad when I agree with them. In fact, it pisses them off more when I agree with them then when I disagree. To be honest, this makes me chuckle.

It is part of living in a simple black and white world of us vs them where the good guys are righteous the bad guys are one-dimensional villains and everyone draws within the lines. To have someone who agrees with them on some issues robs the narrative of its mantel of absolute truth.

They had this Women's March after the 2016 election. It was for women who were upset about the Trump victory. There was a group of pro-life (or is that "anti-choice) women who wanted to march. They were refused; being a woman isn't good enough, being upset about Trump wasn't good enough. These women didn't fit in the ideological battle lines, and so they were excluded.

That is what politics in our country have become, they are polarized and angry with no room for independent thought. It didn't used to be this way.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2021 08:09 pm
@Mame,
Quote:
The only person outraged here is YOU.


It's more poutrage than outrage!
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2021 02:50 pm
@maxdancona,
My answer is of a philosophical nature.
If you consider yourself 'belonging' to one thing - you consider yourself as 'not belonging' to other than said 'thing/group/Team/religion...Etc.

There is No value to the scale or degree of 'indifference' - A thief is a thief, regardless as to whether he/she...Etc steals a cookie or a million bucks.

Inversity is adversity by equal measure.

Have a lovely Everything.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2021 03:01 pm
@maxdancona,
Something that alters the molecular structure of rna is not a vaccine - It is a Drug.
As of Jan 2021 - The Mrna DRUG was re-classified as a "vaccine" so as to smoothe out the 'appeal' toward public uptake.

Wanna link to the Capitol Hill expose?
mark noble
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2021 03:11 pm
@mark noble,
"Shocking Q's on Capitol Hill: Did we just change scientific definition of a vaccine"
Just type that into ytube - less the air-quotes.

Wakey wakey
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2021 03:56 pm
@mark noble,
Arguments about the definition of a word are usually boring. I have always thought of vaccines as a specific type of drug.
 

 
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