On Extremism: What it is and how to stand up to it.

@hightor,

Hightor, this is silly. You are picking a fight about whether your bumper sticker slogan is technically correct or not. It is meaningless.

This is my answer.

max wrote:

If you were to have a respectful discussion with someone who disagreed with you about abortion, they would probably talk about their feeling of when human life begins and the value of human life in general.

When you base your argument on your opinion of the people on the other side, you lose any possibility of meaningful discussion or understanding.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

You are picking a fight about whether your bumper sticker slogan is technically correct or not.

No, I disagree with your characterization of a rather anodyne observation as representative of the "liberal extreme" in order to prop up your failing case.

It's not "my" bumper sticker slogan. I don't think I've ever trotted out that argument in a discussion about abortion. You brought it up:

maxdancona wrote:

The liberal extreme makes the claim that the pro-life side wants to "deny women health care".

I've attempted to show you that it is not an "extreme liberal" position at all. Banning all abortions is the extreme position; pointing out the consequences of such a prohibition is simply an observation that could be made by anyone, anywhere on the political spectrum. You are just taking examples and claiming that they represent the viewpoints of the extreme left in order to justify your own extreme "ideological narrative©". Do I really need to explain to you why terminating a pregnancy is a healthcare decision?

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@hightor,

Hightor,

If someone you respect and admire happens to believe that all abortions should be banned, hopefully you would treat them respectfully even on this issue where you disagree. I would hope you would listen to them, hear their experiences and let them give their own reasons for their belief.

You can respect someone and still disagree with them. Part of this is accepting what they have to say for themselves.

If you respect and care about says "I am against abortion because I feel it is ending a human life and to me life is sacred in the womb". That is their reasoning; they are telling you directly what is important to them and upon what they base their beliefs.

If you then tell them "you are against healthcare for women"... you are not missing the point. You are telling them that what they care about, their true feelings and beliefs on the issue, doesn't matter. That feels like a slap.

I have never heard anyone say "I am against health care for women". When you tell someone they are "against healthcare for women" it is an insult, it is intended to discredit them, and it completely ignores their actual feelings and beliefs.

1 Reply

@hightor,

Lol, don't you know that you are an extremist if you speak up forcefully? If you show some passion for your position? If you criticize a white person or someone famous? (White and famous and you're really out there!) Don't you know that your supposed to sit quietly while people spew hatred because free speech applies to their rights to spout nonsense, but not your right to oppose it rigorously? Can't you understand that once I call you an extremist, I don't have to listen to you anymore?

1 Reply

@engineer,

This is intellectual cowardice from Engineer. Engineer is not engaging in the topic. It is a drive by; jumping on to Hightor's attack without even addressing the topic at hand.

I will be honest. Engineer's behavior frustrates me. His pot shots aren't thoughtful. They aren't reasoned. He is simply jumping on to his ideological side.

There is some history here. Engineer lost his temper in some discussion a long time ago where I asserted that the actual data didn't with his ideological narrative (something that is a little problematic for someone who calls himself "engineer)".

He went off in a huff and said he would never talk to me again. This is fine, Engineer doesn't have to engage with anyone, myself included. If he simply went away, I would be fine with that (although I would prefer if he would engage).

But here he is in a thread I started, taking little nasty pot shots that have zero to do with the topic we are discussing. I think intellectual cowardice is the correct term for that.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

If someone you respect and admire happens to believe that all abortions should be banned, hopefully you would treat them respectfully even on this issue where you disagree. I would hope you would listen to them, hear their experiences and let them give their own reasons for their belief.

Why are you going on about this? I'm not discussing the ethics of abortion, I'm criticizing your characterization of a hypothetical pro-choice sentiment as an example of extremism.

Quote:

If you respect and care about says "I am against abortion because I feel it is ending a human life and to me life is sacred in the womb".

As I must have told you several times already, I feel that's a perfectly acceptable personal viewpoint on the subject, even though I, myself, don't agree with it.

Quote:

If you then tell them "you are against healthcare for women"... you are not missing the point.

But that statement doesn't follow the earlier declaration of belief, which is a personal position. It's only when people wish to prevent all women from obtaining the procedure that they show themselves as being opposed to reproductive healthcare.

Quote:

You are telling them that what they care about, their true feelings and beliefs on the issue, doesn't matter. That feels like a slap.

But I wouldn't tell them that because they haven't expressed their opposition as a political issue. And, even if they had said, outright, that they oppose women having access to this particular reproductive healthcare procedure, I believe I could make my opposing view known without it feeling like a slap.

Quote:

When you tell someone they are "against healthcare for women" it is an insult, it is intended to discredit them, and it completely ignores their actual feelings and beliefs.

FFS, then why isn't it just as "insulting" and "discrediting" to tell someone who is pro-choice that "abortion is ending a human life and life is sacred in the womb" or "you're a baby-killer"? Doesn't that completely ignore someone's actual feelings and beliefs?

You're not being consistent here at all. You're arbitrarily giving the anti-abortion side the moral high ground instead of identifying their position as personally acceptable but politically extreme.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

But here is is in a thread I starting, taking little nasty pot shots that have zero to do with the topic we are discussing.

Um, we were discussing extremism.

Quote:

I think intellectual cowardice is the correct term for that.

Aww...here, have a tissue.

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@hightor,

Quote:

FFS, then why isn't it just as "insulting" and "discrediting" to tell someone who is pro-choice that "abortion is ending a human life and life is sacred in the womb" or "you're a baby-killer"? Doesn't that completely ignore someone's actual feelings and beliefs?

Let's separate the two arguments here.

1) When someone says "I believe that abortion ends a human life and life is sacred in the womb"... they are making an argument based on principle. These are value judgements (and value judgements are always subjective). But they are sincere beliefs.

It is perfectly reasonable to base your argument on principles and sincerely held beliefs. And, there is no contradiction doing this while accepting that other people have different but equally held beliefs on the other side.

2) It is completely different when someone says "you are a baby killer". In this case they are basing their argument on the fact that you are (in their opinion) a bad person.

These are two very different arguments. One can be held with respect, the other can't.

That is the point I am making.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There is some history here. Engineer lost his temper in some discussion a long time ago where I asserted that the actual data didn't with his ideological narrative (something that is a little problematic for someone who calls himself "engineer)".

He went off in a huff and said he would never talk to me again.

I dare you to find that post. Go ahead. You routinely across multiple topics accuse just about every person who disagrees with you of following ideological narratives as a way to refuse debating with them. I can find many times you've done that with me or anyone else. All you have to do is find one case where I said I would never talk to you again. I typically don't engage with you because your debating style has completely devolved to alternating between accusing people of political correctness, cancel culture, political extremism then whining about civility while pretty much ignoring issues, but you claim there is a post out there saying otherwise. You say you're all about facts. Find that post.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

When someone says "I believe that abortion ends a human life and life is sacred in the womb"... they are making an argument based on principle. These are value judgements (and value judgements are always subjective). But they are sincere beliefs.

How about when someone says, "I believe that women have the right to control their own reproductive systems and categorically forbidding them access to abortion denies them healthcare"? Is that unprincipled? Is that insincere? Is that really so "extreme"?

1 Reply

@hightor,

I would separate this into two different statements.

The first part is a key principle of the pro-choice position as I understand it. The statement that "women have the right to control her own reproductive system." is a statement of a moral value. It is the parallel to the statement that "life is sacred in the womb".

Again, these are statements of more principle. You can believe one (or even both) without believing that people who disagree are bad people.

The second part seems like something you tacked on to win an argument. Let me explain it this way...

When we are discussing a woman's right to choose, we are talking about something important. If we discuss what it means to have a "right" or what choice means, we are talking about fundamental principles that actually matter to our world view and our values. Likewise when we are wrestling with that "life" means and whether "life in the womb is sacred", we are touching personal values and core beliefs about what is important.

An argument about whether "abortion is healthcare" is frivolous. It is an meaningless argument over a dictionary definition. So what? If I somehow convince that abortion is not actually healthcare would that do anything to change your opinion even a little bit?

I see the first part as an important statement of a core principle. I see the second as frivolous at best, and possible as a cheap attempt to defame another person's beliefs.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

An argument about whether "abortion is healthcare" is frivolous.

Not to a woman desperately seeking to avoid the consequences of carrying an unwanted or health-threatening pregnancy to term. For some reason you continually deny that this is a real issue involving the health of real women.

Quote:

I see the second as frivolous at best, and possible as a cheap attempt to defame another person's beliefs.

Disagreeing with someone and honestly telling them that their belief, if made universally applicable, could negatively affect someone's health, is not defamatory. People don't all think identically – differences of opinion are often prime motivators of discussion. That such points of contention can't be discussed because someone might be "defamed" is ridiculous. (You can't "defame" someone's beliefs, you defame a person's character or reputation.)

2 Replies

@hightor,

I agree with this post completely. You are making a perfectly reasonable argument that points out that abortion restrictions impact real women. And you are right that this argument doesn't defame anyone.

Someone who takes a pro-life position should be honest about the consequences of their beliefs.

1 Reply

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

That such points of contention can't be discussed because someone might be "defamed" is ridiculous. (You can't "defame" someone's beliefs, you defame a person's character or reputation.)

I want to highlight this distinction you made. I agree completely. I couldn't have said it better myself.

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@maxdancona,

Found that post yet? This is a real chance for you to stick it to me! Do you need help? This looks like pretty much the last thread I bothered to respond to your continuous tirades. https://able2know.org/topic/525546-6#post-6874229 Does that help?

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@engineer,

Engineer, engage or don't engage. That's all I am asking, that you stop these childish off-topic jabs.

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@engineer,

I plead guilty as charged on one count. I belive there is a solid ideological bias (an ideological narrative) here. I believe that ideology causes people here to ignore or deny facts that dont fit. More important the community here is often hostile to dissenting ideas in very personal ways.

If you want to engage, then engage. I respect when you choose to simply not engage. I will be happy to interact or not interact as you choose.

I only ask that you stop the off-topic jabs if you aren't going to engage.

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@maxdancona,

Looking through those old threads was both depressing and insightful. You were engaging in the same rhetoric then as now. Regardless of how you say you define it, in practice, your definition of an extremist is someone who disagrees with your ideology and since we are all different in our ideologies, that means everyone. Have you ever been successful in persuading someone by calling their argument extremist? Have you ever convinced them that your positions have more value by denigrating theirs? You complain about how you are treated then go on to treat others the same way. How's that working for you?

Quote:

I only ask that you stop the off-topic jabs if you aren't going to engage.

But my "jabs" are not off topic. Yelling "extremist" is just another rhetorical tool like calling someone's position "politically correct" (or bullshit or silly). Despite your repeated attempts to define it to your liking, extremist here has no definition other than it has a bad connotation that distracts from the argument, often forcing someone to defend themselves instead of their position and makes those reading along uncomfortable. Still, this is your hobby, definitely not mine. I'll leave you to it.

1 Reply

Haha. ManofTruth is here to provide the comic relief.

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@engineer,

You choose to engage, good.

1. I have clearly defined my definition of extremist in my opening post to this thread. Go back and read it, please.

2, I believe, and I have plainly stated this for years, that there is a strong ideological bias at work on this thread. Part of my thing here is to push back on this bias. I make no apology for this. In fact, I think that pushing back on a group narrative is a good thing (for society at least).

3. On every thread that I enter, I state a position and then I defend it. On many threads push back on what I feel is the ideological bias of many people here (can I call it the dominant bias?). I am not attacking people personally, I am attacking the bias and the failure to recognize facts.

4. I don't believe I have ever called you an "extremist". If I have, then I will apologize, I don't believe you are an extremist. I do believe that you have a tendency to ignore or even misstate facts to support an ideological position. I point it out when you do this. Yes, I am criticising a behavior... but I am not dishing out any criticism that I wouldn't accept.

5. I don't believe you have ever attacked me personally. You are criticizing my behavior, and I can take it. I will have no problems agreeing with you on another thread, it's all fair.

6. I do wish you would show courage in standing up to the name-calling from your own political side. You never engage in name-calling yourself, but you sure never speak up when Izzy or Glitterbag are on their little personal rants. I can obviously take it (I am still here). But it is a little hypocritical for you to decry perceived nastiness, but it ignore it from your own side. I have been called a "fascist", a "misogynist" a "rape-apologist", a "liar" ... I have never seen you discourage this.

I suppose this isn't your responsibility, but it does feel a little hypocritical.

2 Replies

On Extremism: What it is and how to stand up to it.

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