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On Extremism: What it is and how to stand up to it.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 12:11 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Quote:
1) Do you believe that Trump voters (47% of the electorate) represent a diverse group of perspectives and that they have valid points of view on many issues?


You are avoiding the point, Hightor.

Part of extremism is the inability to accept that people outside of their ideology have diverse experiences and valid points. The question I posed challenges you to accept a significant group of Americans.

If you can provide a serious answer to how Trump voters make a valid point, then you will seriously damage my argument.

Fortunately you are unable to do this. This is common in for both of the political extremes. So far, no one has addressed any of the three points I raise in my original post.

I agree there are Americans who don't fit into the left-right categories. I do believe that Americans are more divided into left and right than ever in recent history. The constant name-calling and outrage on both sides is evidence of this.

I have repeatedly challenged liberals on able2know to point out issues on which they feel conservatives make a valid point. So far, no one has even made the attempt. Anyone who can find valid points on both sides of the political chasm in the US has my respect.



My overall political philosophy is to the left of people like Bernie Sanders, Pramilaor Jayapal, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or Jamie Raskin...but I am closer to the American conservative take on several issues...which essentially means I can see valid point across the political chasm.

Capital punishment, gun laws, come immediately to mind.

And even in areas where I am set in concrete in my position (to the left) I concede valid points from the people across the aisle. Abortion, for instance.

I know tons of people who are of that mindset. Why are you having so much trouble connecting with them?
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 12:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And even in areas where I am set in concrete in my position (to the left) I concede valid points from the people across the aisle. Abortion, for instance.

I know – I can understand why some people oppose abortion rights. It might be a valid personal point. But as abortion is an elective medical procedure supported by a majority of citizens I don't consider it a valid political point.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 12:49 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
And even in areas where I am set in concrete in my position (to the left) I concede valid points from the people across the aisle. Abortion, for instance.

I know – I can understand why some people oppose abortion rights. It might be a valid personal point. But as abortion is an elective medical procedure supported by a majority of citizens I don't consider it a valid political point.



Sounds reasonable to me, Hightor.

I will defend a woman's right to end a pregnancy occurring in her own body...anytime she wants for whatever reason she wants. I have done so for many years...and written extensively on it.

BUT I acknowledge that people on the other side of the issue have valid points they are making.

If you want to define those as personal points rather than political points...fine with me.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 01:56 pm
I am defining extremism based on behavior, rather than on what position you take. Most issues (not all issues) can support multiple points of view, all supported by the facts because opinions are based on subjective judgements.

When someone denies facts, and attack points of view outside of a narrow ideology, then I would say they are extreme even if they have a perfectly reasonable position.

A great part of the extremism on the political left is a matter of exaggeration. They take a narrative that is supported by the facts in one case, and then push it to the point where the facts no longer support it at all. The claim that sea levels would rise 400 feet is a good example of this.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 02:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Abortion provides a great example. You can have a pro-life position or a pro-choice position without taking an extreme position. This is an issue where the facts support more than one position and where you stand depends on personal judgement.

The liberal extreme makes the claim that the pro-life side wants to "deny women health care". This is a meaningless attack at best since the purpose is to denigrate the other side rather than to discuss the issue. I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.

You can be pro-choice without making this extreme argument, however the extreme arguments is what you mostly hear from both the political left and the political right.

It is not the positions you take that makes you an extremist. It is the inability to question your own point of view or to accept that reasonable people with valid points are on the other side of the issue.
Mame
 
  5  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 04:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The liberal extreme makes the claim that the pro-life side wants to "deny women health care".


I've never heard anyone claim that. Show me a quote.

maxdancona wrote:
You can be pro-choice without making this extreme argument, however the extreme arguments is what you mostly hear from both the political left and the political right.


No, it's not. With regards to abortion, you may hear that from a few who show up to protest, but in my experience, most people stay at home and keep out of it. With respect to the bolded claim, no. I think, again, you're hearing from the vocal few. Most people, again, don't give a rat's ass about enough issues to proclaim anything, much less have an 'extreme argument' about it.

Seems to me the only extremist here is you.

Most people have opinions that are middle of the road, not extremist one way or the other.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 08:41 pm
@Mame,
Hi Mame!

I am defining "extremism" as how you behave, rather than what your position is. The question is whether you can accept facts that don't fit your narrative, and whether you can accept that people on the other side have valid experiences and points.

I accept your point that many people are apathetic. However, I am specifically talking about the political left and the political right. This refers to people who are making political arguments.

I don't see many people here with the ability to accept facts that question their narrative or to accept that other points of view have valid points to make.

Almost every discussion on Able2know ends up in one of two places... it is either an exercise in group think where no one questions a set narrative, or it is a shouting match about who is a fascist. Able2know serves as a micrososm and parallels political discourse in the US in general.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 09:12 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, give me an example of something that wouldn't fit my narrative, although I doubt you know what that is. Often I even don't - I'm undecided on many things. Most of us are not as polarized on these issues as you are in the States.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2021 09:56 pm
@Mame,
I am not sure exactly what you are asking from me, Mame. If the factual claims I make here fit your narrative, then we have nothing to argue about. I have no problem with you agreeing with me. If you make the effort to see issues from different perspectives, and to question your own ideological biases, then great.

I can't speak to the level of political polarization in Canada. I went back and checked, I did specify the US in my opening post.

0 Replies
 
hightor
  Selected Answer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 03:33 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.

If their goal is to make it impossible to obtain an abortion that would, by definition, deny women health care.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 04:00 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The claim that sea levels would rise 400 feet is a good example of this.

Who is making that claim and how do you know the person (assuming there is one) making that claim represents the "political left"?

You do know that sea level has risen 400 feet since the last Ice Age – are you sure you haven't just misunderstood and confused a geological fact with a prediction?

By the way, are you going to explain what a "valid point" really is? I asked you yesterday and you never responded.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 04:52 am
@hightor,
It has been known since decades (actually certainly 60 years, since I knew that from school, 6th class) that the over the past 20,000 years or so, sea level has climbed some 400 feet (120 meters).

About sea level, wikipedia wrote:
Projecting future sea level is challenging, due to the complexity of many aspects of the climate system and to time lags in sea level reactions to Earth temperature changes. As climate research into past and present sea levels leads to improved computer models, projections have consistently increased. In 2007, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) projected a high end estimate of 60 cm (2 ft) through 2099,[6] but their 2014 report raised the high-end estimate to about 90 cm (3 ft).[7] A number of later studies have concluded that a global sea level rise of 200 to 270 cm (6.6 to 8.9 ft) this century is "physically plausible".[8][2][9] A conservative estimate of the long-term projections is that each Celsius degree of temperature rise triggers a sea level rise of approximately 2.3 meters (4.2 ft/degree Fahrenheit) over a period of two millennia (2,000 years): an example of climate inertia.[1] In February 2021, a paper published in Ocean Science suggested that past projections for global sea level rise by 2100 reported by the IPCC were likely conservative, and that sea levels will rise more than previously expected.[10]
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 05:02 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Abortion provides a great example. You can have a pro-life position or a pro-choice position without taking an extreme position. This is an issue where the facts support more than one position and where you stand depends on personal judgement.

The liberal extreme makes the claim that the pro-life side wants to "deny women health care". This is a meaningless attack at best since the purpose is to denigrate the other side rather than to discuss the issue. I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.

You can be pro-choice without making this extreme argument, however the extreme arguments is what you mostly hear from both the political left and the political right.

It is not the positions you take that makes you an extremist. It is the inability to question your own point of view or to accept that reasonable people with valid points are on the other side of the issue.


Using that "definition" YOU are the extremist here, Max. (As Mame and others have pointed out.)

And not just on the topic of this thread. You have turned from what was a fairly reasonable poster into someone doing this "I am right and will never acknowledge the areas where I am wrong" mentality constantly.

I SUSPECT this has to do with a political ideology you are attempting to mask.

Get over it.



0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 05:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The giant glacier "Pine Island" in Antarctica is melting - researchers have now simulated how much and what consequences this has for the height of the sea level.

Ocean-induced melt volume directly paces ice loss from Pine Island Glacier
Quote:
Abstract
The spatial distribution of ocean-induced melting beneath buttressing ice shelves is often cited as an important factor controlling Antarctica’s sea-level contribution. Using numerical simulations, we investigate the relative sensitivity of grounded-ice loss to the spatial distribution and overall volume of ice-shelf melt over two centuries. Contrary to earlier work, we find only minor sensitivity to melt distribution (<6%), with a linear dependence of ice loss on the total melt. Thus, less complex models that need not reproduce the detailed melt distribution may simplify the projection of future sea level. The linear sensitivity suggests a contribution of up to 5.1 cm from Pine Island Glacier over the next two centuries given anticipated levels of ocean warming, provided its ice shelf does not collapse because of other causes.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 05:53 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.

If their goal is to make it impossible to obtain an abortion that would, by definition, deny women health care.


There you go Mame! Hightor answered your question.... I love it when that happens.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 06:22 am
@maxdancona,
Instead of trying to score cheap points in a non-existent game, perhaps you'd actually respond to my point.

maxdancona wrote:
I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.


Great. I guess these people you know are pro-choice but personally opposed to abortion, because outlawing all abortions is a denial of healthcare to women. How can you claim that it isn't?


maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
1. It is extremism when a political side denies clear scientific facts. People who deny climate change by rejecting clear science are acting in an extreme way.

2. It is extremism when a political side exaggerates scientific facts. If (completely hypothetically speaking) someone were to claim that sea levels are going to risk 400 ft or that Washington DC would be uninhabitable in 50 years, then those would be equally extreme.

When there is science involved, it is the science that determines the "correct" answer. If you are making a science based argument, then you have to go with what the science says.

Either denial, or exaggeration, count as extremism.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:11 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If (completely hypothetically speaking) someone were to claim that sea levels are going to risk 400 ft or that Washington DC would be uninhabitable in 50 years, then those would be equally extreme.

Um...you realize that that statement could be made by someone who was politically neutral. It's no more "political" than someone predicting the consequences of earth being hit by an asteroid.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:15 am
@hightor,
Your question is frivolous, it is a word game. If I were to play we would end up in a silly argument over the meaning of the words "healthcare" and "goal". It doesn't add anything to an understanding of the issue.

If you were to have a respectful discussion with someone who disagreed with you about abortion, they would probably talk about their feeling of when human life begins and the value of human life in general.

When you base your argument on your opinion of the people on the other side, you lose any possibility of meaningful discussion or understanding.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2021 07:49 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Your question is frivolous, it is a word game.

No, it's not a frivolous word game. Nor does my "argument" have anything to do with my "opinion of the people on the other side". You said:
Quote:
I know a fair number of people who are pro-life. I don't know any of them whose goal is to deny women health care.

If these people you know don't want to make abortions unobtainable but are simply personally opposed to the medical procedure your statement is logical. But a "pro-life" position usually means banning abortion, in most, if not all, cases. In that case your statement is self-contradictory as reproductive services, including abortion, are considered to be matters of healthcare. So how can this particular pro-life position not be seen as denying women healthcare?
 

 
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