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You're Anti-Capitalist. But, What are you for?

 
 
Reply Sat 2 Oct, 2021 11:57 am
It is today's fad; ranting about capitalism, corporations, plastic, global trade, shipping and the industrial revolution. They are unabashedly anti-progress (and yet they seem to like the covid vaccine and the internet).

I am not arguing that capitalism is perfect, or that the world we live in now is perfect. Clearly things aren't perfect; there is a whole other thread filled with pictures of trash strewn beaches (yes those beaches exist). I will argue that life for humans is better now than it was 200 years ago; there are fewer people starving, and fewer people dying in war and fewer people living in slavery and we have doubled human life expectancy and slashed childhood mortality... but, that isn't the point of this thread.
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Oct, 2021 12:08 pm
@maxdancona,
In a regulated capitalist system people trade work or ideas for money. If someone works hard and has a very good idea they will earn more money.

Corporations in our modern capitalism are large organizations that earn money by selling goods and services. In their best, they produce things cheaply because of an economy of scale, and they can do the big projects that smaller organizations simply can't such as building airplanes or creating a covid vaccine.

Now, capitalism isn't perfect. I concede that there are abuses and injustices under capitalism. I am not here to discuss that. Regulated Capitalism is not a utopia. My claim is that it is a system that works more efficiently than any alternative.

What I am asking is what is the alternative?. How do you incentivize hard work and innovation in a system that isn't capitalist? How do you big projects and take advantage of economies of scale without corporations?

This is a place to suggest an alternative.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 03:49 am
This is a selection from a longer article, posted in its entirety here.
Quote:

Benefits of Understanding the Role of Capitalism on the Environment

For the final section of this project I would like to touch on some key benefits, I believe, that can come from the understanding of the impact of capitalism on the environment. I believe this essay has successfully outlined how capitalism functions and in what way it is able to manipulate and influence not just human life, but the earth and its biosphere. My final argument is that we can use this understanding in several beneficial ways. First, it shows that there is an immediate need to educate ourselves, as a species, on capitalism and begin to understand that a significant change is required to the entire system. Once we can understand how the system itself functions and the mechanisms involved, going about enacting change can become a much more approachable and attainable endeavor. For example, once we become consciously aware of how marketing, advertising and the media are shaping and forming our needs and desires we can begin to question them critically instead of blindly following the norms created for us by these mechanisms. Furthermore, a deep understanding of capitalism can help humans, as a species, question the way that they are currently living and how sustainable this way of life is. Currently, from childhood we are taught certain norms and values that are not questioned, a lot of which fuel the capitalist system. For example, the education systems’ goal is to prepare students for employment and get them ready to engage with the labour market when they reach adulthood, all of which directly feeds capitalism. Furthermore, the majority of westerners consume meat and other animal products without any real conscious thought into the processes and mechanisms that make this possible. I believe an understanding of capitalism forces an engagement with these issues and allows people to question the very things that they take for granted without much conscious thought.

Another benefit is that it allows people to take individual responsibility for their actions within the capitalist system. This, in my opinion, is one of the most important features of such an understanding due to the fact that it may be impossible to ever move away from the capitalist system. If people are empowered with knowledge and understanding of how the system works, it allows them to take responsibility for their consumption and to think critically about their consumption choices. I argue that such insights allow us to understand capitalism as a form of ‘democracy’ where capital and money are seen as votes. The more you consume a particular product, the more votes you are giving the institution responsible for its production and the more power it will have. If people can become aware of this and become empowered to change the way they think about consumption, we may be able to start seeing a shift towards progress within the capitalist system by using our money and capital to vote for what we believe is right and how things ought to be. As this paper has showed, capital accumulation and profit forms the language of capitalism, so by forming a deeper understanding of capitalism we can use capitalism's own language to enact change in the world. Change for the better and towards a brighter future for the earth and all its inhabitants.


0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 04:29 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
My claim is that it is a system that works more efficiently than any alternative.

There is no "alternative" to compare it to. The goal of greater "efficiency" promotes authoritarian government and monopolistic capitalism. Alternatives are not simply not allowed to become competitive.
Quote:
How do you incentivize hard work and innovation in a system that isn't capitalist?

Why would you need to? If profits weren't a concern, hard work and innovation would simply be choices available to any individual, instead of being seen as some sort of moral imperative required of all.
Quote:
How do you big projects and take advantage of economies of scale without corporations?

It's too late to find out. We inhabit a world made up of nation states and powerful corporations, some private, some public. Nation states and corporations have propelled us into our current situation, and upholding the status quo has become a necessity. Nation states and corporations will not allow the structural changes which would be needed to replace the current system with anything else, as that would directly challenge their monopoly on military power and currency. It's completely unrealistic to expect some alternative system to come to the rescue.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 04:32 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


In a regulated capitalist system people trade work or ideas for money. If someone works hard and has a very good idea they will earn more money.

Corporations in our modern capitalism are large organizations that earn money by selling goods and services. In their best, they produce things cheaply because of an economy of scale, and they can do the big projects that smaller organizations simply can't such as building airplanes or creating a covid vaccine.

Now, capitalism isn't perfect. I concede that there are abuses and injustices under capitalism. I am not here to discuss that. Regulated Capitalism is not a utopia. My claim is that it is a system that works more efficiently than any alternative.

What I am asking is what is the alternative?. How do you incentivize hard work and innovation in a system that isn't capitalist? How do you big projects and take advantage of economies of scale without corporations?

This is a place to suggest an alternative.


Why does anyone want to "incentivize hard work?"

"Hard work" is what criminals are condemned to perform.

What we should be "incentivizing" is getting unproductive people OUT OF THE WORKFORCE.

We should be incentivizing getting people who actually decrease productivity by participating in the production process...the hell out of that process. (Best done by insuring they have enough for a reasonable life without having to work for it.)

Your (what I consider myopic) way of doing things leads to ALL politicians promising to make more work for everyone. When is the last time you heard a politician promise to make LESS work for everyone...to make MORE leisure time for everyone.

So my "alternative" would be to see that only the very competent work (and get lots of return from that work whatever it is) and see that the incompetent or lazy (who are by definition, the incompetent) do not starve to death or die from lack of shelter and the other needs of life..

Next question, please.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 08:42 am
I read carefully through Hightors posts. I don't see anything even close to an alternative to capitalism. What I got from read them is...

1) Humans should stop eating meat (but with no suggestion on how to convince humans, who have loved meat since the stone age, to stop eating meat).

2) Education should not be focused on kids joining productive, prosperous careers, but should instead get kids to think the right thoughts. This I suppose is a way to change thing... but I think kids should be educated to be successful at work, and teaching kids to think correct is the definition of indoctrination. I don't like this idea.

3) We are all doomed, it's too late. This is a key part of the ideological narrative. I don't know what it would mean in terms of policy.

I am looking for a real alternative to our current system of regulated capitalism that would actually be better.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 08:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, I accept your correction.... what I said was incorrect. It doesn't incentivize hard work, it does incentivize productivity (which is not always correlated to hard work).

You are giving more of a wish than an alternative. But, it made me think of the Guaranteed Minimum Income promoted by Andrew Yang.

In this plan, everyone would be given a basic living income whether they worked or not. Then whoever wanted to work could earn as much money, and become as rich, as they wanted based on their aptitude, work and desire.

Is this what you would want?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 09:02 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


Frank, I accept your correction.... what I said was incorrect. It doesn't incentivize hard work, it does incentivize productivity (which is not always correlated to hard work).

You are giving more of a wish than an alternative. But, it made me think of the Guaranteed Minimum Income promoted by Andrew Yang.

In this plan, everyone would be given a basic living income whether they worked or not. Then whoever wanted to work could earn as much money, and become as rich, as they wanted based on their aptitude, work and desire.

Is this what you would want?


Yes.

We have more than enough of all the basic needs for a reasonable life for everyone...and it becomes a problem of distributing the bounty in a way that no one is forced to work in order to live. This will take care of the unfortunates who simply cannot, for a variety of reasons, compete for a living wage. It also will get most of the negatively productive people out of the way so that productive people can do the work and reap the rewards. (That stuff above the essentials and a modicum of leisure functions.)

If everyone had a basic income...spending would go up...and the economy (and the rich) would benefit.

MOST OF ALL, THOUGH...we humans are now at an industrial evolutionary stage where we should not have to work nearly as much as most are required to work in order to share of the bounty.

The unfairness is inherent in the nearly unbridled capitalistic system we have. I am a capitalist...probably one of the few here who actually worked on Wall Street. I see its virtues, but I also see the flaws that have to be remediated.

More leisure for everyone is an absolute must at this time or we should acknowledge that we are not an intelligent species. A family now works longer hours in order to live decently than a family of the 1950's...which makes no sense at all. We have incorporated the equivalence of billions of slaves (machines and computers) into the work force. WE EACH SHOULD BE WORKING MUCH, MUCH LESS...and each have lots more leisure time...so we can spend more time with family, tend to the lawn and garden, write and read more, create more art and music, bring solace and comfort to disabled and elderly people...or to simply bend two oak toward each other by resting in a hammock strung between 'em.
Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 09:09 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I don't see anything even close to an alternative to capitalism.
That's what he wrote.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 09:22 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
But, it made me think of the Guaranteed Minimum Income promoted by Andrew Yang.

In this plan, everyone would be given a basic living income whether they worked or not. Then whoever wanted to work could earn as much money, and become as rich, as they wanted based on their aptitude, work and desire.
The Basic Income Initiative, also known as the "Grundeinkommeninitiative" in Switzerland, is a socio-political organisation in Germany and Switzerland since 2006. It strives for an unconditional basic income for all inhabitants of a country.
(There already two [failed] popular initiatives for it in Switzerland, while in Germany more than 20 persons/month get it via a kind of privately financed lottery. [But just for one year.])
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 11:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
With a Guaranteed Incone, I would still be free to work as much as I like. If my goal was to be wealthy, and I had the ability, I could still work to accumulate wealth.

This is still capitalism.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 12:04 pm
It seems that predatory capitalism has reached its limits - or at least that is what the Pandora Papers will show some people.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 12:04 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't understand why maxdancona attributes these things to me as I never mentioned any of this crap:
Quote:
1) Humans should stop eating meat (but with no suggestion on how to convince humans, who have loved meat since the stone age, to stop eating meat)

I didn't say anything like that. I'm an omnivore. In other threads I've criticized factory farming but not once have I ever suggested that humans should stop eating meat.
Quote:
2) Education should not be focused on kids joining productive, prosperous careers, but should instead get kids to think the right thoughts. This I suppose is a way to change thing... but I think kids should be educated to be successful at work, and teaching kids to think correct is the definition of indoctrination.

I never mentioned anything about education in my response, and I've never written an in-depth post on the matter anywhere else. Kids, as future consumers, are already being indoctrinated by the TV commercials aimed at them since they were old enough to focus on a screen.
Quote:
3) We are all doomed, it's too late. This is a key part of the ideological narrative. I don't know what it would mean in terms of policy.

There is no "ideological narrative©" in effect. I didn't say anyone was "doomed". I said that the world we live in was made by capitalism and we can't change that.
Quote:
I am looking for a real alternative to our current system of regulated capitalism that would actually be better.

Any change, like the guaranteed income, will simply be a further manifestation of regulated capitalism. You'd have to have a money-less society if you wanted to truly replace capitalism and good luck with that. Do you really think that governments, which rely on corporations, are going to kill this goose that lays golden eggs? Get real.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 12:24 pm
@hightor,
Well, "Tina" (Margaret Thatcher) famously said: «There is no alternative».

Taming the monster that is capitalism? Difficult. But between resignation and revolution, there is still room for ideas and models to break the omnipotence of capital.
It is probably impossible to break radically and completely with the system of capitalism. And convincing alternatives are not in sight.
No one wants to return to the times when monarchs were allowed to subjugate their people without restraint or when the socialist planned economy managed scarcity more badly than well.

But deep, longer-term reforms of a capitalist-driven global economy will certainly have to come if we are not to accept climate change, the end of the oil age and recurring financial crises without action.

The world is reaching its limits of growth, raw material reserves are running out. Resources such as soil and water reserves are being ruthlessly exploited. The supply of food is threatened and the gap between rich and poor is growing.
For all these problems, the capitalist system does not offer sustainable and convincing solutions.
Yet these are precisely what is urgently needed.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 12:38 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
For all these problems, the capitalist system does not offer sustainable and convincing solutions.

And neither, I'm afraid, does democracy.

Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens

Quote:
By directly pitting the predictions of ideal-type theories against each other within a single statistical model (using a unique data set that includes imperfect but useful measures of the key independent variables for nearly two thousand policy issues), we have been able to produce some striking findings. One is the nearly total failure of “median voter” and other Majoritarian Electoral Democracy theories. When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 02:25 pm
@hightor,
So, are you anti-democracy?

Can you offer an alternative to Democracy that would be better?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 02:28 pm
Frank is the only person on this thread who has offered a positive solution (rather than just complaints about how the real world works).

I appreciate Frank's contribution... I would have to know the details before I fully support such a plan. But I dont categorically reject it.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 03:21 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
So, are you anti-democracy?

You'll need to be much more specific. You're already framing it as "yes or no" choice and you haven't even defined what you mean.

Quote:
Can you offer an alternative to Democracy that would be better?

Not one that has a chance in hell of being represented by any political party, chosen by any electorate, or adopted by any government.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 03:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
My position is that democracy with regulated capitalism is the best system as has been shown through history. I disagree with the predictions of doom and gloom. Abd I believe that regulated capitalism is the best way for us to continue to address humanities problems. This includes developing policies and technology to address Climate change.

I am still asking what the alternative would be that wouldn't make things significantly worse?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Oct, 2021 03:52 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

With a Guaranteed Incone, I would still be free to work as much as I like. If my goal was to be wealthy, and I had the ability, I could still work to accumulate wealth.

This is still capitalism.


Capitalism would still be in play. But try to sell that idea to the Right...and you will hear a chorus of incessant "socialism."

But, yes, there still is capitalism.

I'd love to see us fix the system to the extent being suggested here.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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