You're Anti-Capitalist. But, What are you for?

@maxdancona,

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And we have almost no practical suggestions how how to make things better.

As I've said repeatedly, any attempts to reduce our individual, national, and global rates of consumption will meet stiff resistance. This is the "democratic paradox" – given the choice, people will opt for familiar short-range comfort over sacrifice for an improved future. You keep demanding to see solutions and refuse to consider that there may not be any.

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@hightor,

I get Hightor. You believe we are all doomed and there is nothing we can do about it. But this is irrelevant to the question.

The question is what is a better economic system than capitalism (specifically regulated capitalism). Even if we are all doomed anyway... capitalism can still be the best system.

Look at the bright side, at least you got your covid-19 vaccine.

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@maxdancona,

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But this is irrelevant to the question.

No, it's very relevant. If a question can't be answered then perhaps you need to reframe the question.

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Even if we are all doomed anyway... capitalism can still be the best system.

That's basically what I've been saying. But it's not the "best" system, it's simply the one we have. I can see it being altered a bit here and there but I don't see an alternative to capitalism.

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Consider the Covid-19 Vaccine.

We are manufacturing literally billions of doses of covid vaccine. I don't know what the cost in carbon emissions is for covid vaccines, but it is a huge international manufacturing effort involving factories and machines and tens of thousands of workers. The vaccines are then shipped on boats and trucks in costly refrigeration units. And they are put into our arms using billions of plastic syringes that can neither be reused or recycled.

The covid vaccine represents the progress of our capitalist industrialized society. It involves cutting edge science, a modern industrial process of manufacturing, a global shipping system. And we have a public health and political system where my government and yours are offering the vaccine for free.

On the down side, there is a undeniable cost in carbon emissions in the industrial manufacturing and shipping processes involved in the covid-19 vaccine.

... and of course, the covid-19 vaccine will mean a greater human population.

I continue to believe that the covid-19 vaccine, and the human progress it represents, are worth it.

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How Corporations Crush the Working Class | Robert Reich

Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich breaks down how power has shifted from labor
unions to corporate giants over the last few decades, resulting in the rich getting richer at the
expense of the working class.

The most dramatic change in the system over the last half-century has been the emergence
of corporate giants like Amazon and the shrinkage of labor unions. The resulting power
imbalance has spawned near-record inequalities of income and wealth, corruption of
democracy by big money, and the abandonment of the working class.

The power shift can be reversed – but only with stronger labor laws resulting in more unions,
tougher trade deals, and a renewed commitment to antitrust.

America is at a tipping point similar to where it was some 120 years ago, when the ravages
and excesses of the Gilded Age precipitated what became known as the Progressive Era.
Then, reformers reined in the unfettered greed and inequalities of the day and made the
system work for the many rather than the few.

It’s no exaggeration to say that we’re now living in a Second Gilded Age. And today’s
progressive activists may be on the verge of ushering us into a Second Progressive Era. They
need all the support we can give them.

Published: April 6, 2021

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@Real Music,

Robert Reich agrees with me on the main point. He supports regulated capitalism just as I do. This piece doesn't talk about the consequences of labor unions (not that I am against them, but they aren't magic) or a way to striking a balance (every pun is intended). But, he is calling for stronger labor laws and an increase in unions. This is not a revolution, it is a tweaking of the system that is already working for us to make it more "fair" (whatever fair means).

Robert Reich is not an anti-capitalist. He agrees with me on the basics. Free market with regulation. Any disagreement is in small details, not in overall philosophy.

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@maxdancona,

Robert Reich wrote:

There is, undeniably, much to celebrate about the new economy. American capitalism is triumphant all over the world, and with good reason. Neo-Luddites who claim that advancing technologies will eliminate jobs & relegate most of us to poverty are wrong, even silly. Isolationists and xenophobes who want to put up the gates and reduce trade & immigration are misguided, often dangerously so. Paranoid populists who say global corporations and international capitalists are conspiring against us are deluded, possibly hallucinating. We--you and I and most Americans--are benefitting mightily from the new economy. We are reaping the gains of its new inventions, its lower prices, its fierce competition. We are profiting from the terrific deals its offering us as consumers, and to a large and growing proportion of us an investors.

From "The Future of Success".

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Robert Reich is not an anti-capitalist.

No, of course not, because as he said:

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Capitalism is now global. There is no country that is not capitalistic in the sense of basing its economy mainly on ownership of private property and the free exchange of goods and services. Even communist China is capitalist in that sense.

Q&A: Robert Reich on Saving Capitalism

There he said that the "Nordic countries—Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands—practice a very different kind of capitalism than we do, for example".
In Germany, we have a different kind as well- a "third way", since our Social Market Economy is regulatory policy between centralist socialism and unbridled capitalism.

Generally speaking, capitalism is still (some say: again) considered a dirty word in the German-speaking world (= not only in Germany).

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@Walter Hinteler,

Last year, there was a very interesting exhibition at the Art and Exhibition Hall of the Federal Republic of Germany (I missed it): WE CAPITALISTS From Zero to Turbo

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@Walter Hinteler,

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Capitalism is now global. There is no country that is not capitalistic in the sense of basing its economy mainly on ownership of private property and the free exchange of goods and services. Even communist China is capitalist in that sense.

Which is exactly the point I've been trying to make maxdancona understand.

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Paranoid populists who say global corporations and international capitalists are conspiring against us are deluded, possibly hallucinating.

And just who are these "paranoid populists"? Because no one on this thread, the "Is the world being destroyed?" thread, the "Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news" thread, or any other serious threads I know of on this site is making this claim. Identifying the harmful things that corporations do is not accusing anyone of conspiracy. I don't think maxdancona really understands what conspiracies are, as he seems to simply apply the label to any widely-held misapprehension. The belief that GMO foods are dangerous, for instance, is not necessarily a "conspiracy theory". There are some fringe elements who think GMO's are part of some Soros-generated plot to decrease human population but they represent a small minority of anti-GMO campaigners. Most of the opposition either opposes the technology because they don't understand/trust the science, prefer traditional crops grown in a traditional manner, or because they are concerned about the overuse of pesticides associated with GMO farming. There's no reason to invent a "conspiracy" to explain this type of agricultural technology. Its simply capitalist efficiency seeking to maximize profit.

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@Walter Hinteler,

bundeskunsthalle wrote:

Capitalism is far more than simply an economic system. It is a social order that has shaped our thinking, perception and existence for centuries. Approaching the topic from a cultural and historical perspective, the exhibition examines the fundamental characteristics of capitalism – rationalisation, individualisation, accumulation, money and investment – as well as typically capitalist dynamics such as unrestricted growth and creative crises.

"«It is easier to imagine the end of the world than it is to imagine the end of capitalism.»"
Mark Fisher (after Fredric Jameson), 2009

In a way, this ‘DNA of capitalism’ has long become part of our own DNA. How does capitalism shape our identity and history, for example in terms of our individuality, sense of time, and attitude to material possessions? Can or must we change it – and do we want to?

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@Walter Hinteler,

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Generally speaking, capitalism is still (some say: again) considered a dirty word in the German-speaking world (= not only in Germany).

Really? That is a little funny given the success of Volkswagen and Daimler and Deutschebank.

Germany does capitalism well, and Germans do quite well with capitalism.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Generally speaking, capitalism is still (some say: again) considered a dirty word in the German-speaking world (= not only in Germany).

Really?

A study published by Statista and YouGov a few years ago shows that only 16 percent of Germans believe capitalism to be something that is on the whole positive. At the same time, 27 percent of Germans have an ambivalent attitude to the economic model, while 52 percent see it as a bad thing.

Source

maxdancona wrote:

That is a little funny given the success of Volkswagen and Daimler and Deutschebank.

But on the other hand, we gave the founding communist thinkers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I am amused by the cognitive dissonance in this poll. Germany is a wealthy capitalist country that exports overpriced higher end automobiles and global financial services. The Germans who took this poll benefit greatly from this.

Nothing to argue about, I am just saying this makes me chuckle.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Germany is a wealthy capitalist country that exports overpriced higher end automobiles and global financial services. The Germans who took this poll benefit greatly from this.

Maybe they believe that their material benefits are the outcome of an unfair system which is in need of reform. The mere success of a system is not a reason to expect its universal admiration.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Germany does capitalism well, and Germans do quite well with capitalism.

There's a really good description of "Social market economy within the wikipedia report Economic history of Germany.

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@hightor,

I think that history (our history) made most think so.

And we certainly have a different view on cpitalism in general.
Looking at max's examples above
- Volkswagen is imajority-owned by the state of Lower Saxony, people here don't look in general at a German state as a capitalist unit,
- Mercedes, for the employees and workers, Daimler ("Mercedes") is more than just an employer. In Swabia, the saying has gone for decades: "Mir schaffe beim Daimler!" (Dialect: we work at [Herr] Daimler). Not only are the salaries/wages exceptionally good, there are lots of additional (and in other sectors not usual) social benefits, more holidays than in comparable industries, a really high company pension, a job guarantee for 10 years ... (the situation is similar at VW).
- Deutsche Bank isn't a bank for normal people*, Postbank ("postal bank") is the retail banking division of Deutsche Bank.

*Most Germans have their bank accounts at either a local "savings bank" (Sparkasse), independent, locally managed and concentrates its business activities on customers in the municipality/district/region in which it is situated, not profit orientated, or at a "people's bank" (Volksbank), more tha 1,100 local retail and commercial banks organised on a cooperative basis.

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@Walter Hinteler,

None of these things represent a "different view" on capitalism. Volkswagen and Daimler are publicly traded profit-driven companies. Daimler pays high salaries, so does Google. These are business decisions and all part of capitalism.

I believe your claim that "Volkswagen is majority-owned by the state of Lower Saxony" is factually incorrect. But even it is is correct, so what? It is still a publicly traded profit-driven company.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

believe your claim that "Volkswagen is majority-owned by the state of Lower Saxony" is factually incorrect.

You are correct.

With the VW-law. Lower Saxony maintains government control in the privately owned company.
Largest owner of Volkswagen shares is Porsche.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

These are business decisions and all part of capitalism.

That's correct. But, for instance, since generations Mercedes workers got better benefits than those guaranteed by labour law (e.g., today you must get 24 working days paid vacancies - most get 30 and above, Mercedes workers get/got always more).

What I wanted to say is that people working there feel like being part of a family, not working for a capitalist's corporation.

We've got "work councils" (Betriebsräte) since the early 1920s, who must be consulted about many issues and have the right to make proposals to the management. Obstruction of the Betriebsrat is a criminal offence.

1 Reply

You're Anti-Capitalist. But, What are you for?

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