I've wondered about this for years

I spent three years in the United States Army Medical Corps. Although i do not wish to trivialize your experience, i would like to point out that this sort of "presence" on the part of those who have returned from the edge of death is not uncommon. Pettiness seems to drop away from them, and their old baggage of prejudice and preference disappears--temporarily. Eventually, though, the world impinges, and they "become themselves again." One of the most graphic examples of this which i saw was in a private soldier to whom i'll refer as Miller (not even close to his real name). Miller stood about six feet tall, and after nearly a year in the army, had reached a weight well in excess of 200 lbs. He could never have passed an induction physical if he had been in that shape at the time he was drafted. One night as he returned from the NCO club to barracks, he came upon three soldiers in the act of mugging and beating a fourth soldier, in Miller's words, "a real little guy." Miller was by nature, once again in his own description, an easy-going guy and a coward. But he got angry, and intervened. The victim promptly scarpered and didn't even bother to call the MPs to the aid of his defender. Miller was cut by one of the assailants from one side of his abdomen to the other, and then when he fought on, the assailants freaked out at the sight of him and fled. They were later apprehended. But not before Miller, who eventually collapsed, laid on the ground behind a supply shed for hours. When the chopper brought him to us, he was near a goner.

It required hours of surgery to sew up the intestines and organs which had been cut by the razor. His considerable girth had saved his life, though, in the opinion of the surgeon, because the blade missed his spleen by a tiny fraction of an inch--he would easily have bled to death otherwise. For weeks thereafter, he hovered between recovery and relapse. The injuries to his intestines lead to several bouts with septic conditions, and he would be on his feet one day, and flat on his back the next.

All of the medics liked him, and the nurses adored him. He was, again in his own words, somebody else--a charming, handsome and debonair man whom the real Miller had never been. But eventually, he began to mend, and was kept in hospital quite a while--the stitches to gather the skin of his abdomen back together kept breaking, and liposuction was either not known then, or was not possible under field conditions. Eventually, he became ambulatory, and gradually reverted to the old Miller, an introverted and morose man with few friends, who took solace in overeating.

I know most of this because he used to come to me to talk quite frequently, especially after his special charm seemed to have deserted him. That was probably because i had had the unpleasant but necessary duty of hounding him for information when the chopper brought him in, near death. Somebody has to do it, and the putz was not wearing his dog tags (technically a violation) so we had no idea of who he was. When his special status began to wane, he looked me up and made me his friend in what was increasingly a world of strangers to him.

I think that when people return from the brink of "that borne from which no traveler returns" they are for a time free of the "worn sleeve of care" and are able to be the most care-free of their inner selves.

Of course, i could be completely wrong, and this might not account at all for what you experienced.

Thanks Set it helps a great deal. The weird thing about that day was that he was still in hospital and not overly communicative. But then I've been tasked to a couple of situations where I've known someone wasn't going to make it and that sort of aura thing just wasn't there. But those are other events which I'm sure you're familiar with.

Thanks again.

bliss

Throughout time there have probably been more words written about this than other subject, there will probably be just as many written in the ten thousand ten thousand years to come. Here are mine.


What happens is this: bliss.

It suddenly strikes you that you are very happy to be here, to be anywhere, to be. All that other stuff that was so important just a few moments ago - how hot it was, how cold it was, what time it was, how you were feeling - vanish in a new sense of what it means to be alive.

Your list of what matters shrinks to almost nothing and is replaced by the simple joy felt when taking a breath. "Mmmm, what a wonderful thing air is." Everything, and I mean everything, amuses and is pleasing. Love is all around.

Bliss is a fleeting condition. It can have a half-life of ten seconds. Usually that's when the pain hits.

That's when the battle between joy and affliction, the condition we call reality re-appears, but if you remember what the bliss was like it gives you a edge.

It reminds you to remember that what matters is what matters, all the rest is in the way of your bliss. So the pain is pain, but it is just pain. Bliss is full joyful life.


Joe(Here are mine.)Nation

I have noticed the same thing in Bear since he "returned" mentally.

He also seems to have found a little laugh I have never heard before. It's kinda boyish. And, his smile is different, more genuine in a boyish way.

So, this will leave when reality of life returns? When he gets back to work?

Too bad. I really like it.

Also - that fella thought he would die, didn't he, GF???


Sometimes there is a sort of ecstasy/peace thingy when you do that.


Like at the beginning of Dances With Wolves - when the Kostner character decides to die - and doesn't - but is sensitised and sort of cleansed...

I think he did dlowan (I would imagine you'd remember the incident,but no names no pack drill as they say), What struck me was that when we walked into his room in hospital that charisma thing was apparent even before we spoke to him.

Interesting. I surely do remember that siege.

I hope your friend has recovered emotionally.

Er - not from the charisma - from the trauma.

I have read his comments about the incident from time to time. It was awful - and it went on for so damned horribly long...

Interesting thread. The comments have been different than I expected. No fanciful metaphysical explanations. Refreshing.

The only experience I have had with this sense of aura or charisma came when I was in a head on collision when I was 17. To this day I still have no memory of the events before the accident, no memory of the accident, no memory of the two hours the firemen and paramedics took using the jaws of life to extricate my body from the car and no memory of the ambulance ride to the hospital. What I do remember though was the emergency room, not from a first person recollection, but from a third party recollection as I seemed to be watching the events unfold before me as I looked on from a high corner in the ER.

Watching from a distance, I felt no pain whatsoever, but I remember hearing this person screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs and I was wishing that person would just be quiet so I could better hear what was going on. The person screaming was me on the table. Apparently in the accident I had fractured my skull, broke my cheek and mouth up, leaving many jagged sharp teeth, broke my clavicle, compound fractured my left arm, broke all of the ribs on my left side which in turn punctured my left lung, broken my left hip and my left knee.

I remember thinking, "there go my favorite jeans" as they cut off all of my clothes and remember thinking the little suction cup device they used to remove my contact lenses was so cool that I should get me one of those.

Time seemed to move very slowly as I watched from a short distance, but everyone was rushing, rushing, rushing so fast down below. What was the hurry? I felt perfectly fine from my own vantage point. I had no pain and was very much at peace, so relaxed and very, very tranquil. At some point I remember feeling very sleepy and I closed my eyes. The next thing I remember was hearing a phone ring and a woman talking.
Several minutes later a nurse came by my bed and saw I was beginning to wake up. She told me I had been sleeping for 4 days and that my mom had just called. I said, "I know".

OK, Lady J. That's an interesting relation from the point of view of the person undergoing the experience or one similar to it. What do you remember about your personality upon coming back to full awareness? Can you or any one who knew you describe something similar to goodfielder's or Setanta's experience?

I don't mean to split hairs here, because I think there is a relationship between the views.

Very interesting, goodfielder.

I was reading up on it a bit.

I brought a little back for you.

Classification Models Of Near-Death Experiences:

Kenneth Ring (1980) has devised an accepted model of 5 recognized stages of near-death experiences. Raymond Moody (1988) has recognized 9 traits associated with the near-death experience. The 5 stages of near-death experiences, according to Ring (1980) are:

1. Peace.
2. Body separation.
3. Entering darkness.
4. Seeing the light.
5. Entering the light. (p.40)

In Ring's (1980) study, 60% of the near-death experiencers reported a sense of peace and tranquility following the awareness of his/her dying process. Thirty-seven percent of the experiencers reported body separation. Twenty-three percent reported entering into darkness and 16% reported seeing a bright light. Of the 104 recorded experiences in Ring's study, 10% indicated the experience of entering in to the light (p.40).

Moody (1988) identifies 9 traits that have been associated to near-death experiences and are experienced during the stages identified by the Ring study. In conjunction with the 9 traits listed below, many near-death experiencers report the compression or absence of time and experiencers are not restricted by space but are free to go where they wish. The recognized traits associated with the near-death experiences are:

1. A sense of being dead.
2. A sense of peace and painlessness.
3. An out-of-body experience.
4. The sense of passing through a tunnel.
5. An encounter with people of light.
6. An encounter with a Being of Light.
7. A total life review.
8. Rising rapidly into the heavens.
9. The reluctance to return.

During the stage of peace, the individual may experience a sense of being dead yet will remain peaceful and will not have any feelings of pain. The out-of-body experience is associated with the stage of body separation. The individual may experience a sense of moving through a tunnel, during the stage of entering into the darkness. As the individual passes through the tunnel, if he/she experiences the tunnel phenomenon, there may be an awareness of a bright light towards the end of the tunnel. While experiencing the consciousness of the light, individuals recognizable by the experiencer may be seen in the light. In the final stage of the near-death experience, the individual may experience an encounter with a Being of Light, reported to be God, Jesus, or other deity identities and rising rapidly into what he/she may consider heaven. During this encounter, the near-death experiencers may become conscious of having a total review of his/her life and may experience a sense of remorse when observing events that may have not been kind to others. Throughout each of the stages, and particularly in the latter stages of the near-death experience, the individual may sense a reluctance to return to his/her former life (pp.7-17).

According to a study performed by Noyes and Slymen (1978-79), which included approximately 200 people who survived a life-threatening experience and had a near-death experience, a statistical analysis indicates that occurrences during the near-death experience fall into 3 constellations of events: mystical, depersonalization, and hyperalert. The mystical experience includes a sense of harmony and unity, color or visions, and a feeling of great understanding. Depersonalization relates to the loss of emotion, detachment from the physical body, and an altered sense of the passage of time. Thoughts are sharp or vivid and are speeded up within the hyperalert constellation.

Michael Sabom (1973) examined the near-death experiences of 116 people. He divided his subjects into 3 group types: autoscopic, transcendental, and mixed experiences. The autoscopic experience relates to the individuals who have experienced the sense of leaving his/her body, an out-of-body experience. The transcendental group are individuals who have a sense of entering into a "spiritual realm". In the mixed experiences, the near-death experiencer may experience a mixture of autoscopic and transcendental experiences (Moody, 1988, p.139).

Not all near-death experiencers report all of the traits, stages, or constellations of the near-death experience. However, the statistical analysis of the data presented in the Ring study (1980), the Evergreen study (Lindley, 1981), the Noyes and Slymen study (1978-79), and the research of Sabom (1977) demonstrates the consistency of these traits, stages, and constellations. Noyes and Slymen's (1978-79) statistical study of 200 people's near-death experiences indicated that the phenomenological descriptions fell into the 3 constellations of mystical, depersonalization, and hyperalert experiences. The Ring study (1980) reported that 60% of the near-death experiencers reported a sense of peace, 37% reported out-of-body experiences, 23% indicated that they entered a tunnel of darkness, 16% relate seeing a bright light, and 10% entered into the light.

The Effects Of The Near-Death Experience:

According to the study of 104 near-death experiences of 102 subjects, there is a qualitative differences among the conditions that lead to the near-death experience (Ring, 1980). The modes of onset of the near-death experience are illness, accident, and suicide. Individuals that are close to or are considered dead as result of illness or accident tend to have a more in depth and positive near-death experience. Individuals who attempt to die as a result of suicide appear to have less of an experience and the experiences have been characterized as being unpleasant.

Near-death experiences, as a result of illness are experienced more by women and represent the most complete experience of the near-death phenomenon. More near-death experiences as a result of accidents are reported by men. A trait of the near-death experience that appears to occur more often in an accident induced near-death experience is the panoramic life review. There are fewer reported cases of near-death experiences initiated by a suicide attempt. The near-death experience, as a result of a suicide attempt, is typically limited to the first 3 stages of the near-death experience. The experiences of individuals who have attempted suicide report the initial feelings of peace and a sense of detachment from the body, as do the other modes of near-death, but the experience tends to become truncated, aborted or dampened (Ring, 1980, pp.115-119). According to reports recorded by Moody (1977), some individuals who have attempted suicide report that there may be a penalty for some acts of suicide. Part of the penalty would be to witness the suffering of others who would be effected by the death of the suicidal individual and/or the situation that the individual was in before the suicide attempt would be repeated over and over (p.45). The Evergreen study (Lindley, 1981), performed by a group of researchers in the Pacific northwest of the United States, used similar methodologies as the Ring study, reported hellish near-death experiences. The reports of negative near-death experiences appear to be rare. Of all the reported near-death experiences, less than 1% are considered to be a negative, hellish, and frightening experience (Moody, 1988, p.27). The negative near-death experiences are reported to contained extreme fear, panic or anger, and possible visions of demonic creatures (Moody, 1988, p.25).

Some people face their own death, fully believing that they are going to die, and then either they recover or find that the situation has so changed that death has been postponed (Kalish, 1981, p.66). The manner in which an individual initiates a near-death experience, either by an illness, accident, or suicide attempt, will affect the intensity of the experience.

The Effects Of The Near-Death Experience:

Near-death experiencers are generally positively affected by their experience. They are not fearful of death and are more compassionate, with the sense of unconditional love towards others (Peay, 1991). The confrontation with death, through a near-death experience, seems to give the individual more meaning to his/her life (Kalish, 1981).

The usual after-effects of a near-death experience consist of changes in personality and values and an attitudinal change towards religion and death (Ring, 1980). The near-death experience causes the individual to view his/her body differently after the experience (Kahlish, 1981, Moody, 1977, 1988; Peay, 1991; Ring, 1980). The near-death experiencer typically regards his/her body as the house of the spirit and there is less of an influence of others and the opinion of others about his/her opinion of his/her appearance (Moody, 1988). There is a heightened sense of appreciation of life, especially of the world of nature and of other people (Ring, 1980, p.141). According to the Ring (1980) study, the near-death experiencer achieves a sense of understanding of what is important in life and strives to live in accordance with the his/her understanding of what is important (p.158). In the final moments of human life, as related by near-death experiencers, the 2 qualities that are prominent in the experience, and are carried from life into the near-death experience, are love and knowledge (Moody, 1977, p.34).

Individuals who have experienced a near-death experience relate an understanding that spirituality concerns the ability to love one another, not specific religious doctrines and denominations (Moody, 1988; Peay,1991; Ring, 1980). Near-death experiencers interviewed in the Ring (1980) study, report that organized forms of religious observances tend to interfere with the expression of the inner religious feelings that they have following the near-death experience. They report that they feel closer to God after their near-death experience.

The way in which post-incident religiousness reveals itself among core experiencers is primarily in terms of an inward sense of religion: They feel closer to God, are more prayerful, are less concerned with organized religion and formal ritual, and express a sense of religious tolerance and religious universalism It isn't clear that their belief in God per se grows stronger, although it is clear that their religious feeling does. Following their incident, they are significantly more inclined then nonexperiencers to be convinced there is life after death. (p.173)

Near-death experiencers no longer fear death. Most often, the experiencers no longer fear the obliteration of consciousness or self (Moody, 1988, p.38). The fear of death is removed. What people come to understand is that while the process of dying may be scary as we contemplate the end of everything, what we enter into at the moment of death is so magnificent, so beautiful, so full of love, that it's a powerful source of hope and comfort (Peay, 1991, p.73).

Assumptions have to be made about life after death since there have been no subjects to study post-death experiences. Experiencers of near-death experiences have a more definite and positive opinion regarding the existence of life after death even though these experiences only reflect the experiences associated with near-death experiences, not death experiences (Moody, 1975, 1977, 1988; Peay, 1991; Ring, 1980; Sabom 1977).
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Wow, thanks Lash!

Excellent, Lash.

Hmmm.

I have recently had the wrenching experience of sitting down at my computer and seeing my telephone blinking with messages.

The first one was someone yelping, wailing, groaning, hard to find words for the sounds, and I thought, it's T.....
(the fairly annoying mother of my niece). But then again, maybe not, as I get some odd phone calls, but probably..

(I thought maybe she was drinking again, but I was disconcerted)

while I was thinking about that the next message was from my ex hub's brother, T's ex husband, saying T had passed away today.

The third message was from my ex, saying T had died.

And soon I was awash in plans to go to LA, making plane reservations, and so on.
I didn't get back to my computer and phone for several days, as I did go to LA to be there for my niece, and when I waltz back into my den, I automatically distractedly erased the messages, since I'd heard them. I remembered her message about a minute later.

I know it was her, as she was in the throes of what they call hepatic coma. On autopsy, her blood ammonia was 92%, or something similar. Those were death cries, just before she went to the ER.

I guess I'm glad I f/d up and erased them.

OK, but goodfielder and Setanta are not describing NDEs are they?

Or are they?

But I think I am. Those were sounds of complete fright without words.

But the NDErs all claim to have had the experience and then lived to tell of it. This sounds like an RDE, if that's the term for it, Real Death Experience.

That's about it.

I haven't asked more about how she got to the hospital. I'd talked to her other times re her trips to county hospital for her malaria and sickle cell anemia and liver disease, and am not surprised by this. Unfortunately, I'd quit answering her calls as years have gone by with late night early morning drunken calls to me about how horrible her ex and my niece are, and I just stopped answering, about a year ago.

I don't exactly feel guilty, but I am very sad about this, that she called me and I didn't answer. I guess I am lucky, guilt wise, that I didn't just not answer a message I heard, as I wasn't home at the time. And hell, I probably would have answered it. I like to think.

I'm sorta familiar with what goodfielder and Set describe - I've seen it myself. I dunno if its really so much along the lines of Ring's NDE studies (fascinating - I've looked into the phenomenon some over the years), as mentioned by Lash - I think there's something else going on there, but I can't really nail it down. Not discounting NDE - its real, for sure. Still, I've had occasion to be a whole lot closer to serious battle injuries than I really cared to get (or, frankly, really care to remember), and I've seen more than enough folks mangled, busted up, and torn apart by mishap - I'm a Volunteer Firefighter and a trained First Responder. There really is something special - different - even "charismatic" - about some folks who are in extremis but conscious and communicative, whether actually near death or not. It might be related to shock, it might be something else. I dunno really what it is. But I know its real. I've seen it. A bunch. As the saying goes, "Been there, done that".