Germs osso! With a child and a dog, there are plenty of
Germs accumulated.
Back in one of my early bacteriology classes, probably bacti IA, we did swabs from our inner elbows. Um, inner elbows...
well, it wasn't titilating at the time...
We swabbed agar plates with, I think a sterile saline moistened swab (it's forty years, give me a break) that we rubbed on our inner elbows and then plated that on agar.
Wiped with various things and did more plates. I forget all the things, but they included cold water, hot water, soapy water, and some sort of antiseptic. Most of those came out about the same, hot water doing a fair job by itself, and soap just cutting grease, such as it was... no real diff. Alcohol didn't do it. They all cut the number of colonies down but only by some fraction.
What did it, really killed bacteria, was phenol and iodine.
I presume that in surgical units they clean with phenol equivalents.
Why one needs to sterilize the average american dinner plate, I have no clue, unless the bathroom slobbo runs hands over the dishes, and even then...
Now then, if you have someone with aids in the house, it is unlikely you'll spread disease by leaving a glass around, as the virus crumps in air in a fairly short time. But for someone who is immune compromized, as in aids or undergoing chemo, then I can see worrying as they are more susceptible to normal bacteria. See some recent discussion we had about a bacteria nabbing some people in hospitals... ehbeth will remember it, I can't remember the thread right now.
It's true that if you have someone who works in the fields and has poor bathroom facilities and happens to have shigella bacteria or hepatitis viruses, whatewver, then that can get on fruit skins if the person has no wipes. I don't think that travels well though. Mostly I don't get the hysteria, except as an aesthetic thing.
Although... I became a bacteriology major in the first place from reading Arrowsmith by Sinclair Lewis. If that didn't turn me off ciggies....
And I did have a friend die from exposure in the lab to a virulent form of Hepatitis B. So, I am not entirely knocking possibilities. But most of the antigerm thing is totally weird to me.
Germs is a term like 'bugs'. Do you know about normal bacterial flora?
Yes osso. We don't have hepatitis, HIV, or any other diseases , but I still do it - probably watched too much
of Howard Hughes.
Edited three times and I still spelled whatever incorrectly!
Yeh. Howard Hughes.
I used to worry that all these antigerm products would cause bacterial resistance, and my instincts are still in that direction, but I looked that up on google recently and it appears there is no data in support, as yet, which is good news to me. So, I've thought all this hysteria was possible causing harm and now I am somewhat mollified.
Young babies probably need some protection re bacterial environment if they are not nursing. Colostrum has mom's antibodies in it, or did when I knew about it. The thymus - an immune functional part - tends to kick in at around six months old, and then the story may change - in that I think there is recent data that at least some exposure is useful, for example, re development of immunities.
I am not reading the latest papers, I just sort of pay attention, and show up here to blather and exclaim.
I don't mean to make fun of people because, not least, I do it at my peril as bacteria and viruses and ricketsia can kill, not to mention prions.... but
I picture a laugh-in type segment with everybody lurching surreptiously for handwipes to hold knobs, shown in plan view over several minutes....
and, pause, we have Cav, and Husker, and Dlowan, and probably more of us who have faced virulent staph infections. I am not at all downplaying those. Just the dinnerplate thing.
ossobuco wrote:I used to worry that all these antigerm products would cause bacterial resistance, and my instincts are still in that direction
and you're right about that.
Use of antibacterial products is NOT recommended for general household use.
Quote:
Answers to your questions about the hazards of antibacterial cleaners
Using antibacterial products like household cleaners and hand and body soaps seems like a good idea. Isn't it?
Antibacterial products may cause long-term problems. Because they kill weaker strains of bacteria, stronger, more resistant germs can flourish. These stronger germs may be harder to kill and could pose a health threat.
Don't I need the antibacterial ingredients to kill germs?
You can keep your family healthy by following common-sense cleaning practices. These include washing hands thoroughly (see below); washing cutting boards, knives, and other utensils after working with raw meats; and cleaning and changing dishtowels and sponges often to prevent the spread of germs.
Most germs are spread by hand-to-hand or hand-to-food contact, including colds and flu, food-borne illnesses, and ear infections. Hand washing with soap and warm water removes these germs.
http://www.cap.org/apps/docs/fact_sheets/germs.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this page is quite interesting
http://www.tufts.edu/med/apua/Q&A/Q&A_antibacterials.html
Quote:How beneficial are antibacterials?
Antibacterials are definitely effective in killing bacteria, however, there is considerable controversy surrounding their health benefits. The non-residue producing agents (Table of Antibacterials) have been used for many years and continue to be effective agents for controlling disease organisms in a wide variety of healthcare and domestic settings. When used under strict guidelines of application, the residue-producing agents have proven effective at controlling bacterial and fungal infection in clinical settings such as hospitals, nursing homes, neonatal nurseries and other health care facilities where there may be a high risk of infection.
Quote:Can the widespread use of antibacterial agents lead to more resistant bacteria?
Many scientists feel that this is a potential danger, but others argue that the laboratory conditions used in the research studies do not represent the "real world." So far, studies of antibacterial use in home products such as soap, deodorant and toothpaste have not shown any detectable development of resistance. However, such products have only been in use for a relatively short period of time and studies of their effects are still extremely limited.
Are there other concerns about the use of antibacterial agents?
Yes, experts believe that the use of these agents creates a false sense of security that may cause individuals to become lax in their hygiene habits. Antibacterial use should not be considered an alternative to normal hygiene, except where normal hygiene practices are impossible.
It should always be remembered that most bacteria are harmless and in many cases, even beneficial. Very few bacteria actually cause disease. Antibacterials are not discriminating and an all-out attack on bacteria in general is unjustified. Constant use of disinfecting agents tends to disrupt the normal bacteria that act as barriers against invading pathogens. This may cause shifts in bacterial populations and create a "space" for disease-causing bacteria to enter and establish infection.
In addition, some scientists have gathered evidence showing that overly hygienic homes during early childhood may be linked to the appearance of allergies later in life. In this "hygiene hypothesis," allergies develop because the childhood immune system fails to mature properly due to lack of contact with immune-stimulating bacteria. This hypothesis remains controversial and requires further research for validation.
I put my dinnerplates in the dishwasher, but if one happens
to be prewashed, then I use my hands.
Although I have my own office and phone, it is used
when I'm not there or cleaned by the mexican janitorial
service (I have no idea with what) - I just feel better
about cleaning it with a Lysol wipe.
I've been pretty resistant to diseases, my family too -
maybe because we take precautions or perhaps due to
a good immune system. I don't know, I just feel better
taking precautions.
I never feel better with anything cleaned by lysol and never have.
Hot water physically forced over a substrate with bacteria will catapult them away, largely, without blasting them with antibio agents.
But, ehbeth, I did see these sites that showed my resistance fears to be presently unfounded. I didn't chase that all down, I suppose there are articles and articles. No, I don't feel like chasing them. I'll just say the sites are out there, one way or the other.
CJ, you have an ordinary healthy immune system, which has been built up, to some extent anyway, from personal exposure. We don't need humans being raised in noncontaminant vacuums.
Nods, nimh....
I've revisited google. (and Tufts' quote by ehbeth makes sense to me.)
Here are some more links, with diverging opinions from each other. I am particularly in tune with the last one - it really explains what I think better than I do.
http://www.ift.org/pdfs/sss/antimicrobials.pdf
http://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/articles/131topics.html
http://www.dobugsneeddrugs.org/daycares/part_five.pdf
I once worked in a bakery - big, factory-like bakery that supplies the bread to most of the town's bakeries (you didnt think they really baked their own bread, did you?). I only did it for one night - worst job I ever had. I can tell you: after seeing what I saw there re: what all happens with foodstuff before you get to buy it, I'm a lot more relativistic about the difference it makes whether, for example, you end up eating that roll from a plate or a tabletop...
As a parent I can say the news is, if bugs and grime and scunge and stuff on the floor could actually kill you if you pushed it into your face then we'd all be dead before we turned one year old.....
What kids think passes for 'nourishment' is... well, best left alone.....
I am already sensitive or allergic to penicillin, floxin and sulfa; 3 of the main antibiotic catagories. I do not like taking antibiotics because I don't want to develop immunity to any of the ones I can take...god forbid I catch something terrible.
In this week's New Yorker, in Reflections -
David Sedaris on germs.....
http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/content/articles/050801sh_shouts
I looooove David Sedaris!
That third one kinda works with the Tufts one, doesn't it.
Yup. I'm not quite as anti-antibacterials as hamburger, but I'm pretty dang close.
I love David Sedaris too.....
