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Why I am an agnostic

 
 
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2021 09:47 am
I am 71. I was raised Ukrainian Catholic, in Connecticut. For the past four decades I have been agnostic. Why? First, everything I have ever learned about religion has come from mortals. Thus, I have no reason to believe that they are correct. In a way, to be an atheist the same dilemma unfolds. In a way, atheism is a 'religion', in that it is a belief system. Thus, I prefer to call myself an agnostic which is a heralding of my ignorance. That is as accurate and as honest as I am capable of being.

We hear over and over again that there had to be a beginning. Why should there have been a start? Where is the beginning of a circle or sphere? And if the concrete object had a beginning, what about the CONCEPT of a circle or sphere? No beginning, no end, no start, no finish. The concept has always existed, but might not have been tapped into until we were smart enough to unfold it.

Why does there have to be ONE supreme being? And why is this being considered to be good? What, exactly, is good? Is it good to go fishing? Many think so, despite the reality of enjoying the long torture of an animal fighting for its dear life. Many actually enjoy that desperate fight. It is, to some, great fun. So, is fishing 'good'? We are uncomfortable with questions like this, and for good reason, because such questions challenge our home made perceptions.

Like with religion. The early settlers to the USA considered killing off the natives a god-given right. You see, "He" (does this being have male genitals?) said in so many words: "You whites are superior and should be the beneficiaries of all of these natural resources." You can bet your bottom dollar that these settlers went to church on Sunday in order to thank this "God". for his masterful largess. The popular saying in the mid 1800s was "There ain't no good injun but a dead injun." This was their religion, tailor-made. In a way, mankind has created its own god in order to placate his ego.

The Israelis are thankful to their own 'God' that he has allowed them to convince the USA that it is OK to massacre Palestinians. And they do. You see, the Palestinian is an evil entity which must be treated as subhuman. You see, the FACT that the Palestinians have lived in Israel (in harmony with Jews) for 1,000 years matters not when the Zionist Star of David intervenes. Such is human nature. (And the USA can be counted upon to keep supplying the deadly ordnance in order to effectuate this 'necessity'.)

I feel best not believing in anything which cannot be proven. And even if it CAN be proven, there is yet pause, because who, other than human mortals, have said that OUR sense of logic is the ONLY logic that there is? There are too many unanswered questions, extant, for David Lyga to hew to the mandate of the hoi polloi.

If I err, please tell me why. - David Lyga
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2021 11:01 am
@david lyga,
Atheism involves belief in that it is a lack of belief. I don't see atheism as a belief system. There is no belief system in saying one does not buy theological or religious assertions. Arguments against theology and religion aren't belief systems; they're merely points counter to those assertions.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2021 03:25 pm
@InfraBlue,
I see atheism as the belief that there is no God.

Mere lack of belief is better characterized as agnosticism IMO, at least if the person in question is willing to entertain the possibility that there is a deity that he is unaware of.
ascribbler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jul, 2021 09:08 pm
@david lyga,
Quote:
If I err, please tell me why


Some people don't know what some words mean.

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
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 04:50 am
@ascribbler,
Interesting. What about agnostics who, because they do not know, neither believe nor disbelieve?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 06:31 am
@david lyga,
david lyga wrote:

I am 71. I was raised Ukrainian Catholic, in Connecticut. For the past four decades I have been agnostic. Why? First, everything I have ever learned about religion has come from mortals. Thus, I have no reason to believe that they are correct. In a way, to be an atheist the same dilemma unfolds. In a way, atheism is a 'religion', in that it is a belief system. Thus, I prefer to call myself an agnostic which is a heralding of my ignorance. That is as accurate and as honest as I am capable of being.

We hear over and over again that there had to be a beginning. Why should there have been a start? Where is the beginning of a circle or sphere? And if the concrete object had a beginning, what about the CONCEPT of a circle or sphere? No beginning, no end, no start, no finish. The concept has always existed, but might not have been tapped into until we were smart enough to unfold it.

Why does there have to be ONE supreme being? And why is this being considered to be good? What, exactly, is good? Is it good to go fishing? Many think so, despite the reality of enjoying the long torture of an animal fighting for its dear life. Many actually enjoy that desperate fight. It is, to some, great fun. So, is fishing 'good'? We are uncomfortable with questions like this, and for good reason, because such questions challenge our home made perceptions.

Like with religion. The early settlers to the USA considered killing off the natives a god-given right. You see, "He" (does this being have male genitals?) said in so many words: "You whites are superior and should be the beneficiaries of all of these natural resources." You can bet your bottom dollar that these settlers went to church on Sunday in order to thank this "God". for his masterful largess. The popular saying in the mid 1800s was "There ain't no good injun but a dead injun." This was their religion, tailor-made. In a way, mankind has created its own god in order to placate his ego.

The Israelis are thankful to their own 'God' that he has allowed them to convince the USA that it is OK to massacre Palestinians. And they do. You see, the Palestinian is an evil entity which must be treated as subhuman. You see, the FACT that the Palestinians have lived in Israel (in harmony with Jews) for 1,000 years matters not when the Zionist Star of David intervenes. Such is human nature. (And the USA can be counted upon to keep supplying the deadly ordnance in order to effectuate this 'necessity'.)

I feel best not believing in anything which cannot be proven. And even if it CAN be proven, there is yet pause, because who, other than human mortals, have said that OUR sense of logic is the ONLY logic that there is? There are too many unanswered questions, extant, for David Lyga to hew to the mandate of the hoi polloi.

If I err, please tell me why. - David Lyga


You are pretty much on the button with these remarks, David.

Some people here will attempt to peddle the nonsense that "atheism" is merely the "lack of belief", but just let that slide. They need that fantasy and it is okay to just let them have it.

EVERY person I have ever known or known of who identifies as an "atheist"...has one of two "beliefs":

They either "believe" that no gods exist, or...

...they "believe" it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one does.

The "belief" that no gods exist...is nothing but a blind guess. There is absolutely no way to determine that no gods exist. It is a negative of much, much too wide a scope to be handled by logic or science.

The "belief" that it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one does...is also nothing but a blind guess. There is no way to determine the likelihood of "there is at least one god" versus "there are no gods" using science, logic, reason, or math.

My own agnosticism (a descriptor I seldom use anymore for myself) is:

I do not know if any GOD (or gods) exist or not;

I see no reason to suspect no gods can exist…that the existence of a GOD or gods is impossible;

I see no reason to suspect that at least one GOD must exist...that the existence of at least one GOD is needed to explain existence;

I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction on whether any gods exist or not...

...so I don't.


(When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)

Really great to have a like-minded person here in A2K, David.
david lyga
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 01:15 pm
I cling tenaciously to my my statement that atheism is a 'religion', in that it is a belief system. In essence, that is a valid definition of religion. The belief is strong, unbinding, and absolute; it is predicated upon faith. It is a system of denial, not of a belief in a 'God'. You can disagree, but you won't convince me otherwise.

On the other hand, agnosticism is a claim of (correct) ignorance. I know nothing other than what mortals have imparted, and anything else that I can derive therefrom. I feel that I have no right to claim otherwise.

My doctor has said that I might have prostate cancer. You know, I am at some level of peace with that potential diagnosis. For some reason, I really am at peace. If I am handed a death warrant, I would really not appreciate that, but I am sufficiently resolute to accept that truth without tears or fears of the unknown.

Life is but a transition, folks. How many in SurfSide, Florida had any premonition that they would be excluded from life in a split second with that condo collapse? This, folks, is life at its truest. It is not nice, nor ugly, nor untenable. It simply is, and we would all be better to accept that reality.

When I was young, my homosexuality was cause of great distress for me because being 'that' was worse than being a murderer. Getting beaten up each and every day was routine in my school life, and adults could care less. I was so hated that I turned into an introvert. (Today, when blacks bitch about 'racism' they don't know what this white person went through!!!) But I did survive and, to be truthful, am probably able, now, to persevere more than most who otherwise hold onto a barren inheritance of entitlement.

Our culture is skewed towards self-hurt. Parents who bring up their kids 'so that those kids will never suffer' are damn fools who will learn the hard way in life. Life does not cater to such entitled sensibilities, but travels in the only way it has always traveled: sometimes rewarding for evil and sometimes hurting those saints among us. This is not 'fair', but it is true and we have to accept that.

My previous posts have centered upon unacceptable viewpoints (such as my inability to believe that the Holocaust actually happened); viewpoints which I felt that had to be expressed, but were not being expressed for varying socially construed reasons.

I am not after 'being followed' or 'being accepted', but, nevertheless, wish to be read. - David Lyga

Is it not telling that both David Lyga and Frank Apisa give their names?
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 02:07 pm
@david lyga,
I acknowledge and honor that kind of honesty. I truly do.

Rare, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
david lyga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 02:10 pm
Glenn, when you have no choice but to be truthful, there is no merit due. But thank you, anyway. It is easy to be the way I am due to my life: no friends, no family, but I do have a certain self-confidence which does not rely upon a 'team winning', a 'like' on Facebook, a 'friend' who is false. For that, I have succeeded in life, in that I can recognize falsehood much easier than most. - David Lyga
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jul, 2021 04:25 pm
People using their own definitions of words is one reason these discussions break down into futile talking past each other.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 05:16 am
@david lyga,
Quote:
I cling tenaciously to my my statement that atheism is a 'religion', in that it is a belief system.

Cling as tenaciously as you like but I think you are being simplistic – merely trying to undercut a theory which you reject (your particular definition of "atheism") by attempting to turn it into a system of beliefs to which it ostensibly objects in order to make atheists (as you define them) appear hypocritical.

Christina Anne Knight wrote:
Religion: a metaphysical system constructed on an architectural framework of superstition and myth, that attempts to explain the nature of reality, and the relationship of our species to it, which along with a body of ritual, and a static code of ethical formulation, is perpetuated via cultural transmission, for the psycho-physiological alleviation of existential angst and is epistemologically dependent on magical thinking, delusion, and confirmation bias.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 05:26 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:


Quote:
I cling tenaciously to my my statement that atheism is a 'religion', in that it is a belief system.

Cling as tenaciously as you like but I think you are being simplistic – merely trying to undercut a theory which you reject (your particular definition of "atheism") by attempting to turn it into a system of beliefs to which it ostensibly objects in order to make atheists (as you define them) appear hypocritical.

Christina Anne Knight wrote:
Religion: a metaphysical system constructed on an architectural framework of superstition and myth, that attempts to explain the nature of reality, and the relationship of our species to it, which along with a body of ritual, and a static code of ethical formulation, is perpetuated via cultural transmission, for the psycho-physiological alleviation of existential angst and is epistemologically dependent on magical thinking, delusion, and confirmation bias.



I disagree with David's contention that atheism is a religion...it is NOT. But I agree with David's contention that it IS a "belief system." Just about every person who chooses to use "atheist" as a self-descriptor (or part of a self-descriptor) "believes" there are no gods...or "believes" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

Neither of those contentions can be obtained using logic, reason, science, or math; both are as much a blind guess about the REALITY as is the blind guess that there is a GOD.

I think the Christiana Anne Knight quote is a bunch of bullshit.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 05:30 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

People using their own definitions of words is one reason these discussions break down into futile talking past each other.


When using words like "gods" or "believe" or "moral" or the like...it is much better to explain what one means when using those words...than to depend on supposed "definitions" given in reference books. The "definitions" often differ...and the definitions are not actually definitions. They are explanation of how the words happen to be used at this point in time.

Nothing whatever "wrong" with using one's own definition...as long as one explains that when using the word, that is what he/she means.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 05:54 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Cling as tenaciously as you like but I think you are being simplistic – merely trying to undercut a theory which you reject (your particular definition of "atheism") by attempting to turn it into a system of beliefs to which it ostensibly objects in order to make atheists (as you define them) appear hypocritical.

If pointing out facts and reality undermines a religion so severely, that might be a sign that the religion’s beliefs are flawed.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 05:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I disagree with David's contention that atheism is a religion...it is NOT.

Sure it is. It’s a system of beliefs regarding the nature of the divine.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 07:06 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But I agree with David's contention that it IS a "belief system."

It can be a belief. Or a disbelief. But how is it systematic?

Quote:
I think the Christiana Anne Knight quote is a bunch of bullshit.

Very insightful. That really clears things up.
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 07:08 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
If pointing out facts and reality undermines a religion so severely, that might be a sign that the religion’s beliefs are flawed.
It might be a sign that the attempted definition was incorrect in the first place.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 07:25 am
@hightor,
The attempt is successful. The definition is correct. Atheism is a form of religion.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 07:25 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:


Quote:
But I agree with David's contention that it IS a "belief system."

It can be a belief. Or a disbelief. But how is it systematic?


It is a philosophical system which derives from one of two "beliefs" (guesses, actually): One, the "belief" that there are no gods...or two, the "belief" that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

Atheism is NOT a religion, but it is every bit as much a "belief system" as is theism...and is not more scientific or logical than theism.


Quote:

Quote:
I think the Christiana Anne Knight quote is a bunch of bullshit.

Very insightful. That really clears things up.


I thought it would. Glad it was helpful for you, Hightor.
0 Replies
 
david lyga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jul, 2021 07:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
OK, the problem here is that the definition of 'religion' is 'belief system' in my version of Merriam Webster. Alternatively, 'religion' is defined as a belief in a superhuman controlling power; thus my definition would falter. So it is a matter of which dictionary definition is authoritative here. In this way, I concede, but only so far, in order to be both fair and transparent.

And, folks, 'disbelief' is 'belief', pure and simple. The 'system' is with the argument for the disbelief. I cannot argue either way as being absolute because I can neither believe nor disbelieve that there is some ultimate supreme being.

Importantly, and to be truthful, if that being actually does exist, does that being want me to use my intellect (that 'it' personally gave me) to argue against such existence or does that being wish for me to conform, thus sullying the potential of that 'God-given' intellect? Is this being so starved for praise that 'it' needs one to counter one's intellect? Good question? - David Lyga
0 Replies
 
 

 
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