Why I am an agnostic

@david lyga,

One thing in not buying the arguments for the existence of God; another thing is not refuting the possibility of acceptance.

Te theological arguments for the existence of God that I've come across involve only one god.

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@david lyga,

No, it's not evil, but it's awfully boring.

Why care if there is a god or 20 gods? You're never going to KNOW so this is futile.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do, however, think that atheism is built on a foundation of "unsubstantiated "beliefs."

How is saying "I don't buy the arguments for the existence of God," an unsubstantiated belief?

It isn't.

BUT a "belief" that there are no gods...or a "belief" that it is more likely that there are no gods...ARE BOTH UNSUBSTANTIATED "BELIEFS."

Which is what I have said.

And I personally do not know (or know of) ANY person who uses the descriptor atheist who does not "believe" one of those two unsubstantiated "beliefs."

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

I see atheism as the belief that there is no God.

Mere lack of belief is better characterized as agnosticism IMO, at least if the person in question is willing to entertain the possibility that there is a deity that he is unaware of.

LOL the idea of a god can not be disproved but in my opinion it is so unlikely that it approach as a limit the position that there is no god.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

oralloy wrote:

I see atheism as the belief that there is no God.

Mere lack of belief is better characterized as agnosticism IMO, at least if the person in question is willing to entertain the possibility that there is a deity that he is unaware of.

LOL the idea of a god can not be disproved but in my opinion it is so unlikely that it approach as a limit the position that there is no god.

Only to the mind of someone who has made a blind guess about the likelihood of gods. There is nothing wrong with making that guess...but it is just as much a blind guess as the blind guess that there is at least one god.

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@Mame,

You know, Mame, there are great philosophers who have questioned the existence of a blade of hair. Why? The interconnectedness of this world legitimatizes doing just that. If there were no thinkers who questioned seemingly trivial events, then we would be much poorer as a culture.

Religion IS important, simply because it manages so much of the world's politics, thus people's very lives. We cannot afford to negate what is deemed important out there, even if we have no personal use for the ingredients of the argument. Please think about that, Mame. - David Lyga

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

BillRM wrote:

oralloy wrote:

I see atheism as the belief that there is no God.

Mere lack of belief is better characterized as agnosticism IMO, at least if the person in question is willing to entertain the possibility that there is a deity that he is unaware of.

LOL the idea of a god can not be disproved but in my opinion it is so unlikely that it approach as a limit the position that there is no god.

Only to the mind of someone who has made a blind guess about the likelihood of gods. There is nothing wrong with making that guess...but it is just as much a blind guess as the blind guess that there is at least one god.

Blind guess!!!!!! Show me one repeat one known and proven event that is not within the law of nature as we now know it. It not spells or payers to the gods that allow us to share ideas over a world width net worth or for men to travel to the moon. It was not a payer to any god the allow me to take a day ff of work and used my ultralight to fly over the traffic of people who had not taken the day 0ff.

Technology give us power over the real world not asking some god to aid us.

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BillRM, I love you dearly but let me play devil's advocate for a bit. What, precisely, is an 'event'? Is an event something that humans deem to be a 'happening'? Or is it merely the sensory perception of such. I am so confused with what is actually real that I had to say that. In sum, what right do we have to determine what is, and is not, legitimate with regard to perception?

Humans have their own logic. This logic just might not be logical in an absolute sense. I would not be surprised if time did not actually exist (as we perceive it) but was simply a human perception of a feigned 'event'. I know that this is being 'overly' deep, but I have to say that I find my question legitimate. - David Lyga

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

BillRM wrote:

oralloy wrote:

I see atheism as the belief that there is no God.

Mere lack of belief is better characterized as agnosticism IMO, at least if the person in question is willing to entertain the possibility that there is a deity that he is unaware of.

LOL the idea of a god can not be disproved but in my opinion it is so unlikely that it approach as a limit the position that there is no god.

Only to the mind of someone who has made a blind guess about the likelihood of gods. There is nothing wrong with making that guess...but it is just as much a blind guess as the blind guess that there is at least one god.

Blind guess!!!!!! Show me one repeat one known and proven event that is not within the law of nature as we now know it.

What in hell does that have to do with it?

And what in hell make you think that "the laws of nature as we now know it"...are THE LAWS OF NATURE...governing your guess?

YOUR BLIND GUESS that (the existence of a god or gods) "...is so unlikely that it approach as a limit the position that there is no god"...

...is as much a blind guess as the blind guesses made by theists who estimate the at least one god is absolutely necessary for anything to exist.

Get over thinking it is anything but a guess, Bill. You are too intelligent to be kidding yourself.

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@david lyga,

david lyga wrote:

BillRM, I love you dearly but let me play devil's advocate for a bit. What, precisely, is an 'event'? Is an event something that humans deem to be a 'happening'? Or is it merely the sensory perception of such. I am so confused with what is actually real that I had to say that. In sum, what right do we have to determine what is, and is not, legitimate with regard to perception?

Humans have their own logic. This logic just might not be logical in an absolute sense. I would not be surprised if time did not actually exist (as we perceive it) but was simply a human perception of a feigned 'event'. I know that this is being 'overly' deep, but I have to say that I find my question legitimate. - David Lyga

All kind of nonsense could be real but you have to throw out all logic and common sense along with occam razor.

For example cities had been wiped off the earth with hundreds of thousands people living in them but those cities was either wiped out by humans or as a byproduct of known natural laws not some piss off god as the bible talk about.

There is no known event that had happen outside natural laws nor any reason to assume that there are beings who can change any natural laws at their whim.

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@Frank Apisa,

Sorry hardly blind guesses that there are not likely repeat likely supernatural beings playing games with the universe at their whim. Oh yes hiding from us for some reason.

In all of known human history there is no evidence of a god or gods and once more even if the idea is meeting some emotional needs of your for gods it does not made god or gods anymore likely.

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@BillRM,

I agree with BilRM but need to add one more valid point.

Evidence of a 'God' is personal, private, and, importantly, unknown to others. I cannot tell someone that 'there is no evidence' because I do not know of others' experiences. Thus, there is no absolute mandate for one to accept the lack of evidence here. BillRM means well and, other than this important point I just made, speaks accurately and sanely.

I do not know what others have experienced. Nor does anyone else (I think). This projection covers all bases and is meant more to encourage thought on the issue rather than be a vehicle for castigation. I know nothing other than my own perceptions. Period.

I have to say that this Forum has been one of the best assassinators of my depression. - David Lyga

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sorry hardly blind guesses that there are not likely repeat likely supernatural beings playing games with the universe at their whim. Oh yes hiding from us for some reason.

If by "supernatural" you mean something outside of what actually exists...then of course there are no supernatural beings. Nothing that does not exist...exists. That is a tautology.

If, however, you mean (as you should) something outside of what puny, relatively uninformed humans consider to be "what actually exists"...then there are almost certainly gazillions of things that exist.

You do not know if any gods exists or not...but you do not have the strength of character or integrity to simply acknowledge that you do not know...and leave it at that.

Okay...there is room on the planet for people lacking in character and integrity.

Quote:

In all of known human history there is no evidence of a god or gods and once more even if the idea is meeting some emotional needs of your for gods it does not made god or gods anymore likely.

In all of known human history there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER of any sentient beings living on any of the planets circling the nearest 25 stars to Sol.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NO SENTIENT BEINGS ON ANY OF THOSE PLANETS...NOR THAT IT IS MORE LIKELY THAT THERE ARE NO SENTIENT BEINGS ON ANY OF THOSE PLANETS THAN THAT THERE ARE.

Any intelligent person of character and integrity would simply acknowledge that he/she does not know if there are or are not.

You are making a blind guess that there are no gods...or, more specifically, that it is unlikely that there are any.

Work up the spine to acknowledge that you do not know and leave it at that...or STFU, because you are making an ass of yourself with this nonsense.

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Belief in a (protective and just) "God" is a palliative factor for humanity. It made sense out of ancient life and makes sense for today's wayward human creatures. I am not here assuming that THAT is the reason for such belief, but I am stating, objectively, that it could well be a major component thereof. Think about it: it gives mental peace to many to hold belief in such. However, again, that is not a definitive definition of, or absolute explanation for, religious belief.

Many factors decide the moral, mental, logistical fate of humans. We, collectively, crave solace and peace, but, as well, greed and conquest. Thus, we are multifaceted in our thinking. Planning for the future, too often, becomes subordinate to immediate satisfaction and understanding. To grow whole and improve upon our faults, we need to appreciate (and grow from) our deficiencies. At the same time, we need to counter our pride and lack of honest introspection. We need to counter those who oppose us, but we also have a moral obligation to help those others improve in a non-threatening, non-demeaning way. Is this too much to ask? - David Lyga

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@Frank Apisa,

Kids believing in the tooth fairies are just as likely to be real by your logic than any other supernatural being including the Christian god.

Once more some gods or god is possible ruling this universe it however is as likely to me as there being tooth fairies

Oh supernatural beings as in gods are beings outside the laws of the universe that have no need to obey those laws and can change them at their whim.

IE all knowing and all powerful gods.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Kids believing in the tooth fairies are just as likely to be real by your logic than any other supernatural being including the Christian god.

I have been talking about a god or gods. Stop with the other bullshit in an attempt to hide the fact that you do not have the ethical wherewithal to acknowledge that you do not know if any gods exist...and that you do not know that it is more likely that none exist than at least one god does.

Quote:

Once more some gods or god is possible ruling this universe it however is as likely to me as there being tooth fairies

**** that ruling stuff. That is an attempt to divert. In this thread I have clearly stated what I am talking about when using the words "god" or "gods".

Quote:

Oh supernatural beings as in gods are beings outside the laws of the universe that have no need to obey those laws and can change them at their whim.

I used to admire many of your posts, Bill. You are proving yourself to be a jerk. Nothing wrong with being a jerk. I guess we need them for some reason. Thank you for volunteering to be one.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do, however, think that atheism is built on a foundation of "unsubstantiated "beliefs."

How is saying "I don't buy the arguments for the existence of God," an unsubstantiated belief?

It isn't.

But here you said that, "some people here will attempt to peddle the nonsense that "atheism" is merely the "lack of belief", but just let that slide. They need that fantasy and it is okay to just let them have it."

Atheism is merely a lack of belief when one says they do not buy the arguments for the existence of God. It's the simpelist definition of the term.

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@Frank Apisa,

Well we can blame god for my being a jerk or my parents letting me get my hands on the family King Jame Bible at tens or so.

I can still remember the shock of what an ugly being this christian god was that we was was supposed to worship,

First I was hoping this god was on the same order as the tooth fairies or Santa
Clara as far as being hold out as real.

Something that the adults for some reason wish to sell to the children.

Could not when or now understand how adults with their brains working could for real buy into this complete nonsense.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do, however, think that atheism is built on a foundation of "unsubstantiated "beliefs."

How is saying "I don't buy the arguments for the existence of God," an unsubstantiated belief?

It isn't.

But here you said that, "some people here will attempt to peddle the nonsense that "atheism" is merely the "lack of belief", but just let that slide. They need that fantasy and it is okay to just let them have it."

Atheism is merely a lack of belief when one says they do not buy the arguments for the existence of God. It's the simpelist definition of the term.

It is "simple"...and bullshit.

You have been called out on your use of the "God" rather than god or gods. If you are talking about a particular God...name the God, be it Jupiter, Wodin or Zeus.

The suggestion that "atheist" just means "someone who does not 'believe' any gods exist"...is nonsense.

I do not "believe" any gods exist...AND I AM NOT AN ATHEIST.

I also do not "believe" there are no gods...AND I AM NOT A THEIST.

I am suggesting that while all atheists "lack a 'belief' that any gods exist"...NOT ALL people who lack a "belief" that any gods exist are atheist.

Some are simply non-theists. Some describe themselves as agnostics, some as ignostics, some simply do not use a descriptor.

Nearly as I can see, the reason people who use the descriptor "atheist" use it...is because they "believe" that there are no gods...or they "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

The use of the word, as far as I am concerned, is based on one of those "beliefs"...not because of allegiance to a dictionary definition given in some, not all, reference books.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Well we can blame god for my being a jerk or my parents letting me get my hands on the family King Jame Bible at tens or so.

I can still remember the shock of what an ugly being this christian god was that we was was supposed to worship,

First I was hoping this god was on the same order as the tooth fairies or Santa
Clara as far as being hold out as real.

Something that the adults for some reason wish to sell to the children.

Could not when or now understand how adults with their brains working could for real buy into this complete nonsense.

Some people do buy into it...and, in my opinion, that is unfortunate for humanity. I wish fewer did. The god of the Bible is an abomination...cruel, vindictive, comically tyrannical, vengeful, demanding, and thoroughly detestable. Like you, I find it difficult to understand how anyone could even like that god, let alone love and worship it.

But they do...and many are decent, well-intentioned, intelligent people. Ya gotta live with that.

But none of that has anything to do with what we have been discussing, Bill.

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Why I am an agnostic

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