Afterlife?

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

I don't believe that I've ever said that and wonder why you'd impute it to me.

He didn't. He imputed it to Elon Musk.

I think that's one of those billionaires with a private space program, but I didn't look it up to double check.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

I don't understand your hostility and insistence that I'm making my beliefs out to be "better" or myself "smarter" than others.

While you weren't directing this at me, I'd like to jump in.

I don't see much difference between:

a) an atheist saying "Nyah nyah. You're going to cease to exist when you die. /blows raspberry"

and

b) some Protestant ranting that I'm going to burn in Hell for eternity for not adhering strictly to his particular subbranch of Christianity.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

Not if you simply assume that the concept of an afterlife -- "life after life" -- is oxymoronic.

I doubt that such an assumption would make nonexistence any less unpalatable to me.

hightor wrote:

Why do you want to deny this? A fate shared with all other living things on our planet. A fate shared with stars and galaxies.

I don't wish to deny that death awaits us all. Nor do I deny it.

hightor wrote:

So what?

That depends on what awaits us after death.

hightor wrote:

Not really, as many religious believers draw the line at the notion of an "afterlife".

The fact that some religions share this belief with atheists does not change the fact that it is an atheist religious belief.

hightor wrote:

The idea that our "souls" survive after death is merely one type of religious belief.

And the idea that our souls do not survive death is merely another type of religious belief.

hightor wrote:

People who reject that belief may or may not be religious. The absence of belief in an afterlife is not the same as having proven there is no afterlife. One can simply ignore the subject entirely.

I doubt that many people never ponder what awaits them when they die.

hightor wrote:

I think of death as a cold, dreamless, sleep from which none of us ever awaken as the remnants of our physical bodies deteriorate and the memory of our existence and the traces of our activities fade over time. I don't find that as troubling as you do.

I find the possibility of that outcome horrifying.

That's not to say I think it's the worst of all possible outcomes. If I were to become both deaf and blind so that I was effectively cut off from the world and everyone that I care about, I'd rather die than go on for years or decades of darkness and silence, and I'd want that even if it meant nonexistence.

But the fact that I can contemplate something even worse does not mean I'm at all happy about the possibility of nonexistence.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

hightor wrote:
I think of death as a cold, dreamless, sleep from which none of us ever awaken as the remnants of our physical bodies deteriorate and the memory of our existence and the traces of our activities fade over time. I don't find that as troubling as you do.

oralloy replied:
I find the possibility of that outcome horrifying.

I think I understand hightor's attitude. It is very hard to accept something that you honestly don’t think you deserve. It can be an honorable position to take.

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@Leadfoot,

I didn't get from his posts any sense that he feels that he doesn't deserve it.

Although I'll admit that I can't wrap my head around the calm acceptance of death that both you and he have. So I am probably not getting a good read on either of you.

Perhaps it's a matter of age. Older people are more accepting of death than middle age people are.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

I've heard that people who take hallucinogenic drugs like LSD can sometimes feel like they are meeting beings from the afterlife, and afterwards they are much more comfortable with death even though they can't recall what they spoke to these beings about.

There was a 60 Minutes piece a year or two ago about medical experiments doing the same with magic mushrooms.

EDIT: I think this is the page for that 60 Minutes piece:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/psilocybin-active-agent-in-magic-mushrooms-could-treat-addiction-depression-and-anxiety-60-minutes-2019-10-10/

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

I have not seen a spirit of live and let live in your debate...

bulmabriefs didn't start this thread with "live and let live" as part of the ground rules.

Quote:

...people who do not believe the same as you are gullible and therefore stupid.

"Gullible" doesn't mean stupid. Beliefs different from mine don't denote stupidity. With regard to religious belief, probably a majority of humans still believe the things they were told by authoritative people who claimed to "know" and were respected in their communities. It's part of "fitting in" and yes, I do think it requires a certain amount of "gullibility" to believe some of the more fantastic stories used to impress, teach, and scare people. It doesn't mean that those believers are "stupid", just incurious toward the claims of their religion. Real stupidity results in social dysfunction — acceptance of the prevailing religious beliefs doesn't mean those people can't do well for themselves and make contributions to their community.

Quote:

Sounds like you’re the one being gullible.

I don't believe I'm guilty of self-deception here.

Quote:

You’ve not said what you would consider a reasonable belief in an afterlife.

If someone can provide a convincing explanation that does not involve some sort of incorporeal existence in an immaterial realm it would provide ground for some sort of discussion but, as of yet, nearly all the beliefs in an afterlife that I've heard are defended by scripture, species-ism, wishful thinking, or the words of authority figures. Some people try to argue for the afterlife by referring to NDE's but those stories have been pretty well explained without recourse to supernaturalism.

3 Replies

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

Quote:
You mean "what is so harmful" other than the many wars, slaughters, genocides; pogroms; suicides; patricides; matricides; fratricides; regicides and **** like that which are a direct result of "tentative conclusions?"

No, those are not based on "tentative conclusions" at all, those are the acts of "true believers". There's nothing "tentative" about the sorts of conclusions which lead to those decisions — those people's minds are made up.

C'mon, Hightor.

"Tentative conclusions" is no better than "believe/belief" as a disguise for "blind guess."

Saying, "I 'believe' there are no gods nor any kind of afterlife" is not appreciably different from saying, "I tentatively conclude" that there are no gods nor is there any kind of afterlife."

Same goes in the other direction...and leads to all sorts of trouble and harm.

You seem to be coming from a hard atheistic position. No...you have not mentioned atheism...but that appears to be the case.

Am I correct that the background noise is "an atheistic position?"

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I didn't get from his posts any sense that he feels that he doesn't deserve it.

Not him specifically, if I understood him, he could not envision anyone or anything deserving of an afterlife.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

A tentative conclusion isn't the same as a dogmatic belief.

Dictators don't assume the power they have by voicing "tentative conclusions".

Those who follow demagogues don't base their loyalty on "tentative conclusions".

I don't think a "tentative conclusion" is the same as a "blind guess". An informed guess subject to correction upon further evidence seems more like what I had in mind.

Why are you (and oralloy) so hung up on this "atheism" thing? If I can carry on this discussion without evincing a hard atheist position why are you bringing it up? I'm simply skeptical of religious claims. The only time I even get into discussions like this one is online, when people make claims that lack evidence. Read bulmabriefs' OP and you'll see what I mean. Yes, I was nasty to oralloy here and that wasn't about the "afterlife" but about his concern with ceasing to exist which I think is rather vain and egotistical for a young man with a stratospheric IQ. And for that I apologize, to oralloy and to the site.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Not him specifically, if I understood him, he could not envision anyone or anything deserving of an afterlife.

You are correct. It's enough to have lived a good life and for that I am exceedingly grateful. Expecting to exist struggle-free for an eternity seems a bit greedy and sounds boring as well.

1 Reply

@hightor,

I don't think I'm greedy for wanting to continue to exist.

Eternity doesn't have to be boring.

First, perhaps people in Heaven are incapable of feeling bored.

Second, perhaps there will be lots of interesting stuff to do in Heaven.

Third, perhaps Heaven will give people the option of voluntarily slipping away to nonexistence when they are ready to go, but will allow them as much time as they wish for as long as they still wish it.

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

If I can carry on this discussion without evincing a hard atheist position why are you bringing it up?

From my perspective you are evincing a hard atheist position.

hightor wrote:

Yes, I was nasty to oralloy here and that wasn't about the "afterlife" but about his concern with ceasing to exist which I think is rather vain and egotistical for a young man with a stratospheric IQ. And for that I apologize, to oralloy and to the site.

Apology accepted.

I'm middle aged though. Time keeps on slipping away. So I'm old enough to start thinking about my eventual demise.

I don't however think it's wrong for people, regardless of their age, to like themselves and want to continue existing.

If you were injured and the injury could be easily repaired at a hospital but would be fatal if left untreated, would you get yourself to a hospital or just let yourself die?

If you really don't care if you exist or not, then you would just let yourself die. But I suspect that you would get yourself to a hospital so you could continue living.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I've heard that people who take hallucinogenic drugs like LSD can sometimes feel like they are meeting beings from the afterlife, and afterwards they are much more comfortable with death even though they can't recall what they spoke to these beings about.

There are occasions when a hallucinogenic can temporarily free you from the insidious mental rut that this society demands. If it helps you see that 'this' isn’t all there is, I’d call that good. It isn’t proof, but it might provoke you to at least look.

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Actually some of the people kept their beliefs that this is all there is.

The hallucinogens still helped them to be fine with it despite that.

It's hard for me to tell exactly why such experiences make people comfortable with death. They seem to do so however.

1 Reply

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

If someone can provide a convincing explanation that does not involve some sort of incorporeal existence in an immaterial realm it would provide ground for some sort of discussion but, as of yet,

This is probably more in the realm of speculative science fiction than something that is on-topic for this thread, but if humanity did discover some sort of afterlife tucked somewhere within the boundaries of the universe, how would we (meaning humanity) react?

Try to communicate with our dead relatives in these places? Try to send nasty messages to Hitler making fun of his suffering in Hell?

Could neoconservatives try to invade Heaven and conquer it?

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@hightor,

hightor wrote:

A tentative conclusion isn't the same as a dogmatic belief.

What you are calling a "tentative conclusion" is an attempt to use "belief"...without actually using the letters b e l i e or f.

A "tentative conclusion" is a belief. Nothing more; nothing less.

Quote:

I don't think a "tentative conclusion" is the same as a "blind guess". An informed guess subject to correction upon further evidence seems more like what I had in mind.

Careful of your wording.

"I don't think a tentative conclusion is the same as a blind guess" IS NOT THE SAME as "I think a tentative conclusion is not the same as a blind guess."

As for what I think on this issue: I think a tentative conclusion is exactly the same as a blind guess, but one offered by someone who sees the problems with offering a blind guess.

Many theist feel the same as you. They use "believe" in place of blind guess. For the moment, you seem to be using "tentative conclusion."

Quote:

Why are you (and oralloy) so hung up on this "atheism" thing? If I can carry on this discussion without evincing a hard atheist position why are you bringing it up?

Why are you bringing up the "why are you bringing it up" on the issue? I want to know...or get a better picture of what motivates what you are saying.

Quote:

I'm simply skeptical of religious claims.

I think it is more than that, but you see an advantage of not discussing it further...and so be it.

Quote:

The only time I even get into discussions like this one is online, when people make claims that lack evidence. Read bulmabriefs' OP and you'll see what I mean. Yes, I was nasty to oralloy here and that wasn't about the "afterlife" but about his concern with ceasing to exist which I think is rather vain and egotistical for a young man with a stratospheric IQ. And for that I apologize, to oralloy and to the site.

I am not sure (or interested in) what you and Oralloy are doing. I have Oralloy on IGNORE and never read a word he writes. That is unfortunate, because I dislike ignoring anyone, but some problems occurred in the past that made the move the best option.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

If you really don't care if you exist or not, then you would just let yourself die.

Not caring whether I exist isn't an accurate description of my beliefs on the matter. I consider this to be my existence, now, my life. Of course I will take what steps I need to preserve my health and comfort and survive to an old age.

But, (assuming I reach advanced old age) when incurable disease, senility, or general decrepitude catches up with me, I'll have no choice and will face my death, regretting the things I hadn't accomplished but satisfied with what I have completed. My existence will come to an end, a few people will remember me for a few years, my possessions will be carted of to the dump, my cats will find new homes.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.OeouK0kqxSoFaUDWmnw0iQHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

Actually some of the people kept their beliefs that this is all there is.

The hallucinogens still helped them to be fine with it despite that.

Yes, responses are very ‘personalized'. Set and setting can be important too.

I was already convinced of 'more' before consuming shrooms, I was already comfortable with death, it was life here that seemed more endurable afterward. I had been suicidal before. Now I’m just watching the show. Sometimes it’s interesting, but not often. Anything else here is just a bonus. I guess that’s a good place to be at my age. This would be harder if I thought i was only halfway done here.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

That is unfortunate, because I dislike ignoring anyone, but some problems occurred in the past that made the move the best option.

The "problems" in question are the mere fact that I do not hate Mr. Trump.

1 Reply

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