11
   

Afterlife?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 07:59 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
its not necessarily the "Loyal opposition " to a belief system, Its basically not neeing such a belief system at all.

Atheism is a competing belief system.


farmerman wrote:
So lets say that none of them have strong evidence (although Id question the lack thereof of the non religious POV), wheres that leave the whole formal liturgy and story lines of religions.

It leaves agnostics as the only rational people.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 08:05 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Atheism is a competing belief system.
but they dont have a secret handshake, foot washing, or majic undie wear Very Happy Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 08:43 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
All Im sayin i that none of this BS has evidence to support it. Its a cult of personalities that really does use the concept of "Who's saying it" to prove the belief. I find that even less than circular reasoning, dont you?

It’s always a dead giveaway when it gets too close to the matter and you react by dismissing it 'all' as 'BS'. THAT is circular in your argument.

And I don’t believe Lemaitrie was a professional beautician no matter what you say.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 09:46 am
@Leadfoot,
arent you the one who first called Le Maitre 'cosmetologist"? If it wasnt you , sorry ,
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 09:47 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
It’s always a dead giveaway when it gets too close to the matter and you react by dismissing it 'all' as 'BS'. THAT is circular in your argument
same thing except an attempt at verbal stealth
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 11:18 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
It's one thing to feel sadness and apprehension about the circumstances which will surround you as you are faced with your own demise. Similarly, feelings of grief concerning the deaths of others is certainly understandable. But bemoaning the reality of your mortality and eventual extinction as if it were something unfair or tragic is simply childish. Choosing to believe the fable is fine, but it's a rather pathetic coping mechanism because it's obviously an invented story, unsupported by evidence, which even many religious believers aren't 100% sure of — why not just accept birth, life, death, followed by the empty hollow hum of eternity?

Accepting it doesn't mean not fearing it. Most people fear it.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 05:03 pm
@Brandon9000,
People who fear it should come to terms with it so they don't fear it. It's just a part of the life cycle.

Fear of the inevitable is ridiculous.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 05:23 pm
@Mame,
Some of us apparently value our existence much more than others do theirs.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2021 03:04 am
@Mame,
Quote:
People who fear it should come to terms with it so they don't fear it.

I know. That's all I'm suggesting. What Brandon9000 said is interesting though:
Quote:
Most people fear death so much that they believe in a fable that they won't really die, but will instead go to a magical place of eternal happiness.

In our culture I doubt that this belief relieves many people of their fear of dying. The big "if" of course is whether they enter paradise or are subjected to eternal torment. I really think that simply accepting personal extinction and dealing with it is less frightening.

I'm not sure how to take this person's statement:
Quote:
Some of us apparently value our existence much more than others do theirs.

It's more like some of us can't imagine a world that continues without them; that's not valuing one's existence more than others, it's believing that one is, somehow, indispensable. I can honestly say that, yes, I value my existence particularly since I accept an inevitable point of termination.
It's actually soothing; I'd rather face my death with a sense of satisfaction, and a feeling of completion than with fear of the unknown. But we each have to work these things in our own way.
bulmabriefs144
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2021 06:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quoting Yoda without understanding context is a surefire way to fail in my book.

The Jedi religion is based on mashing up Taoism with the Christian philosophy. The series is popular because it appeals to its own internal theology (when we die, we become Force spirits).

You cannot quote Yoda and accept a godless universe with no afterlife. Atheism is the teachings of the dark side. The very people who convince us not to believe in life beyond death, because then we won't become ghosts to haunt them, and who don't believe it themselves because they can convince themselves that they can solve their problems by killing ppl they don't like.

But if Star Wars is any guide, Yoda didn't truly die. Neither did Han Solo.
Neither Ben Kenobi. Neither did Leia. Their ghosts live on. Especially since somehow they immortalized Carrie Fisher after her death (creepy).
------------------------
My point being, aside from someone abusing Yoda's "there is no try" is that there are a number of problems with a lack of afterlife (I don't think it's essential for people to believe in God. If God is God, he exists whether or not we believe in him, because he doesn't need us).
1. "I can get rid of people I don't like!" The last thing we need in society is psychopathy, and when people are convinced other people won't at least curse them in death, what's to stop mass murder. Oh sure, someone can kill you, but then you're dead and will never feel sorry for what you did.
2. "There is no justice." I was talking about the natural human need for payback after person with mentality #1 brutally murders your parents or children. Someone accused me of talking like it was the dark ages. Obviously they've never been a mother. Even losing one of your children, you hope the law will take care of it. But increasingly, the criminal justice system has a life sentence or three, yet lets them out early for good behavior. Your child is dead! Where was the justice if they barely served 10 years?!? And so, if there isn't a special place in hell for those kinds of people, there's no "coming to terms with death" as other ppl above me put.
3. "I'll never see him again." This is a offshoot of #2. Just as we humans need to see bad people punished (maybe forgiven eventually but first to learn their lesson), we need to see all those who came before us again. That grieving mother has peace knowing that her child is there, and she's gonna see him one sweet day. It's not important whether you think it's true. It's important that she thinks it's true.
4. "There's no point." Combining # 1, #2, and #3, there is a prevailing sense without a place for the dead to go, that nothing matters. If this is the case, then society breaks down. Why should I pay taxes or debts? I'm gonna die anyway so I mihht as well live it up. Why should I bother being kind to people? Etc? Pretty soon, everyone treats everyone else like crap, feeling that nothing matters. We have hell on Earth. Congratulations, you have finally punished that man who killed your child. By making the world so miserable that he would rather die. Or course, you would too. But anyway.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2021 12:31 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

Quoting Yoda without understanding context is a surefire way to fail in my book.


I thank you for sharing that information, but I could not give a **** less what constitutes failure "in your book."

Quote:

The Jedi religion is based on mashing up Taoism with the Christian philosophy. The series is popular because it appeals to its own internal theology (when we die, we become Force spirits).

You cannot quote Yoda and accept a godless universe with no afterlife. Atheism is the teachings of the dark side. The very people who convince us not to believe in life beyond death, because then we won't become ghosts to haunt them, and who don't believe it themselves because they can convince themselves that they can solve their problems by killing ppl they don't like.

But if Star Wars is any guide, Yoda didn't truly die. Neither did Han Solo.
Neither Ben Kenobi. Neither did Leia. Their ghosts live on. Especially since somehow they immortalized Carrie Fisher after her death (creepy).
------------------------
My point being, aside from someone abusing Yoda's "there is no try" is that there are a number of problems with a lack of afterlife (I don't think it's essential for people to believe in God. If God is God, he exists whether or not we believe in him, because he doesn't need us).
1. "I can get rid of people I don't like!" The last thing we need in society is psychopathy, and when people are convinced other people won't at least curse them in death, what's to stop mass murder. Oh sure, someone can kill you, but then you're dead and will never feel sorry for what you did.
2. "There is no justice." I was talking about the natural human need for payback after person with mentality #1 brutally murders your parents or children. Someone accused me of talking like it was the dark ages. Obviously they've never been a mother. Even losing one of your children, you hope the law will take care of it. But increasingly, the criminal justice system has a life sentence or three, yet lets them out early for good behavior. Your child is dead! Where was the justice if they barely served 10 years?!? And so, if there isn't a special place in hell for those kinds of people, there's no "coming to terms with death" as other ppl above me put.
3. "I'll never see him again." This is a offshoot of #2. Just as we humans need to see bad people punished (maybe forgiven eventually but first to learn their lesson), we need to see all those who came before us again. That grieving mother has peace knowing that her child is there, and she's gonna see him one sweet day. It's not important whether you think it's true. It's important that she thinks it's true.
4. "There's no point." Combining # 1, #2, and #3, there is a prevailing sense without a place for the dead to go, that nothing matters. If this is the case, then society breaks down. Why should I pay taxes or debts? I'm gonna die anyway so I mihht as well live it up. Why should I bother being kind to people? Etc? Pretty soon, everyone treats everyone else like crap, feeling that nothing matters. We have hell on Earth. Congratulations, you have finally punished that man who killed your child. By making the world so miserable that he would rather die. Or course, you would too. But anyway.


I have no idea of what you are babbling on about, Bulma.

My answer to the question, "Is there an 'afterlife' of some sort?" is the same as my answer to the question, "Is there at least one god?"

I DO NOT KNOW...and any guess I make in either direction is nothing more than a blind guess.

Do you have a problem with that?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2021 07:12 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

People who fear it should come to terms with it so they don't fear it. It's just a part of the life cycle.

Fear of the inevitable is ridiculous.

Suppose you found out that you had a fatal illness? You're suggesting that it's ridiculous to be afraid? That's completely unrealistic. The fact that something is inevitable doesn't make it not scary.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2021 07:45 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Suppose you found out that you had a fatal illness?


I think it's more reasonable to be afraid of undiagnosed symptoms. The certainty provided by a medical doctor explaining the probable course of the disease would be a relief.

Quote:
You're suggesting that it's ridiculous to be afraid?

No, that it's not necessary to be afraid.

Quote:
The fact that something is inevitable doesn't make it not scary.

No, but it gives you a perspective which may enable you to come to terms with your fate and lessen your anxiety.
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2021 09:35 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Mame wrote:

People who fear it should come to terms with it so they don't fear it. It's just a part of the life cycle.

Fear of the inevitable is ridiculous.

Suppose you found out that you had a fatal illness? You're suggesting that it's ridiculous to be afraid? That's completely unrealistic. The fact that something is inevitable doesn't make it not scary.


Depends on your outlook on life and your life in general. If I knew I had a terminal illness, I'd make sure my affairs were in order. They're already in order, but that's what I'd be focussing on. Making sure things were paid up, paid off, etc., and my end-of-life instructions were clear, etc.

People fear all kinds of things - ageing, sickness, being alone, losing loved ones, death... Most of those are inevitable. If you live to be 100, or even 90, it's highly likely you'll have lost a great deal of family and friends and that you won't be as healthy as you were at, say, 70.

What is the point of fearing any of this? We are all going to die one day. We don't know what will happen to us when it's our turn, but we also don't know if we'll get hit by a bus tomorrow. Does that mean we shouldn't leave our homes in case that happens?

Fear is a real retardant. There's no purpose in it. It's like worry or guilt or shame. If you deal with whatever situation is causing those feelings, the feelings will go away.

I've never understood why people cling to those negative and useless feelings.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 01:36 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
It's more like some of us can't imagine a world that continues without them;

No, we can imagine that. And the continuation of the world is not the problem. It's the idea of ceasing to exist that is the problem.

If the entire universe ceased to exist at the same moment that I cease to exist, I would still be unhappy about ceasing to exist.


hightor wrote:
that's not valuing one's existence more than others, it's believing that one is, somehow, indispensable.

I am indispensable, to me.


hightor wrote:
I can honestly say that, yes, I value my existence particularly since I accept an inevitable point of termination.

If you value your existence it would seem that you would be upset about the possibility of that existence ending.


hightor wrote:
It's actually soothing; I'd rather face my death with a sense of satisfaction, and a feeling of completion than with fear of the unknown.

That's the point of all religions. But atheists must be masochists to find peace and satisfaction from the belief that they will cease to exist.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 01:37 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
No, but it gives you a perspective which may enable you to come to terms with your fate and lessen your anxiety.

It is our fate to die.

The idea that it is our fate to cease to exist when we die is merely atheist religious belief.
Jasper10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 03:07 am
@oralloy,
LOL....I would totally agree with your last statement.

The 4 off logic output possibilities confirm this as well....Anyone who makes such a statement is lost in consciousness.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 03:46 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
If you value your existence it would seem that you would be upset about the possibility of that existence ending.

Not if you simply assume that the concept of an afterlife – "life after life" – is oxymoronic.

Quote:

It is our fate to die.

Why do you want to deny this? A fate shared with all other living things on our planet. A fate shared with stars and galaxies. So what?

Quote:
The idea that it is our fate to cease to exist when we die is merely atheist religious belief.

Not really, as many religious believers draw the line at the notion of an "afterlife". The concept is not self-evident and raises questions which cause many people, religious believers among them, to doubt the practical value of investing in that belief.

The idea that our "souls" survive after death is merely one type of religious belief. People who reject that belief may or may not be religious. The absence of belief in an afterlife is not the same as having proven there is no afterlife. One can simply ignore the subject entirely. I don't spend any time contemplating the "mystery of the trinity", sacrificing rams at altars, or praying to ancient deities. I have no reason to spend any time concerning myself with such matters. I think of death as a cold, dreamless, sleep from which none of us ever awaken as the remnants of our physical bodies deteriorate and the memory of our existence and the traces of our activities fade over time. I don't find that as troubling as you do.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 05:33 am
Quote:
oralloy Quote:
It is our fate to die.

hightor reply:
Why do you want to deny this? A fate shared with all other living things on our planet. A fate shared with stars and galaxies. So what?

This is interesting. It’s as if hi is unable to even imagine anything that ought not to die, no matter whether it does or not.

Even that poor bastard Elon Musk has that. A pity he thinks it’s this society we created that deserves to go on. Maybe he thinks it will get better.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2021 07:26 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
It’s as if hi is unable to even imagine anything that ought not to die, no matter whether it does or not.
I can imagine eternal life, but not the "ought".
Quote:
Maybe he thinks it will get better.

Actually I don't.
Quote:
A pity he thinks it’s this society we created that deserves to go on.

I don't believe that I've ever said that and wonder why you'd impute it to me. Especially that it "deserves" to go on when measured against the destructive effects it has on the closed system which sustains all living things. This society we created deserves nothing.
 

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