The Derek Chauvin Trial

@snood,

snood wrote:

I tried to hurry up and edit my last post after I found out the details of that Ohio shooting. The cop appears justified in this case.
The teenager looked as if she was about to stab another teenager when the officer opened fire.
I didn’t want to make the mistake of lumping all cops together.
This time it looks like he really tried to “protect and serve”.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ohio-police-kill-teenaged-black-girl-say-media-family-2021-04-21/

This is another issue I'm becoming increasingly alarmed over. Young women are getting involved in vicious attacks usually over a boyfriend, or some imagined or real slight or just because they don't like each other. This violent trend seems to span racial groups and they are filming these fights and posting them on-line as if it's an achievement. But, again, this is a separate topic from Chauvin..........but it is the first time that I've ever heard of a policeman shooting a teen girl to prevent her from stabbing another girl. I'm sure this has happened plenty of times when the police have had to break up fights between women....I'm just very unhappy about this rising violence between girls.

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@glitterbag,

Unfortunately the filming of violet fights and bullying to share on social media is something that had been going on awhile - I remember seeing TV shows about the phenomenon,

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@snood,

Quote:

but he acted with impunity for twenty years within the Minneapolis Police system.
We would be making a mistake to treat Chauvin as a total lone wolf anomaly. There was a whole police department that had his back for years.

This is kind of what I meant when I said - a bad officer combined with being allowed to act this way.

The other thought too is - there are also I would venture to guess those "good" officers that want to speak up but fear being an outcast - more than an outcast but held back, given bad reviews, and fear of losing their job, etc.

I mean in the financial industry where I work at one time they demeaned women - I remember being called "dividend girl" (this being a fully educated manager) by the old school type guy; but now it would never happen. Granted this is on a lower scale than murder but it has changed.

There is hope this can change as well. The hope being the "good" will not fear speaking up. The hope the "good" would stop a similar situation before it goes too far. The hope - the norm is treating people with dignity and respect - protecting and protecting with force if needed, but also pulling back when it is not needed.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

The hope the "good" would stop a similar situation before it goes too far. The hope - the norm is treating people with dignity and respect - protecting and protecting with force if needed, but also pulling back when it is not needed.

It’s good to have hope. But it will take federal legislation and oversight to force police to protect and not harass whistle-blowers. The blue wall of silence is an unspoken police code that prevents “good” cops from taking action.

There is only one case I know of where a cop acted to stop another
cop from harming someone in custody. Just ONE. She made her partner release a choke hold. It got her fired, and it took them years to rescind the termination and give her back pay.

It needs to be made illegal to punish a cop for acting to stop another cop from committing a crime.

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Add the name of Andrew Brown, father of ten. Owned no gun. Shot in his car this morning.

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@edgarblythe,

This one looks ugly. This is just up the highway from me.

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@longjon,

Linkat wrote:

I don’t care what Floyd did – at the time he was stopped and no threat. Why the h*ll would you continue to harm the man? Makes no logical sense.

longjon wrote:

What are the police supossed to do going forward? Now whenever a violent black attacks someone, the police aren't going to be allowed to do their job. Benjamin Crump started legislation to ensure that, and Biden called to pledge allegiance to Crump yesterday and promise to pass the law. So now, when a violent black is high out of his mind on crack or PCP, the police will be forced to stand down even if that black is raping a woman in broad daylight.

longjon, you're removing a normal statement from context (he was stopped and no threat) and placing it into an extreme context (where they are active and severely threatening, rather than already stopped)....people only do this type of severe twisting of context when they have poor reasoning for their views.

And the obvious answer to 'what are they suppose to do' is to adjust their use of force according to the situation, and use the minimal force necessary to safely resolve the situation. This is written into the UN charter on police use of force. Ie:
- restraining a non handcuffed, strongly resisting person takes more force than a handcuffed person, so
- once a person is handcuffed, the use of force should de-escalate.
What Chauvin did to Floyd was in no way necessary to the safety of the officers or anyone else. It was quite obvious that what Chauvin did lead to Floyds death, and it was forseeable that it would (Chauvin received training that positional asphyxia can lead to death from difficulty breathing, and he was also told mutliple times by Flloyd about the breathing problem, and in any event whatsoever - everyone knows that if you can't breathe, you die)

A conviction for murder was the correct decision.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Add the name of Andrew Brown, father of ten. Owned no gun. Shot in his car this morning.

This makes me cry - and worry what is going on

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@vikorr,

If your family was raped and murdered by violent blacks who were high on crack and PCP would you feel the same way? I think the issue, is that you're judging the situation from an affluent, white, liberal bubble.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:

Add the name of Andrew Brown, father of ten. Owned no gun. Shot in his car this morning.

This makes me cry - and worry what is going on

Me, too (makes me want to cry). What I really wonder, though, is why they have to shoot to kill. Just shoot his leg or arm out - debilitate the person, but no one dies. It makes so much sense to just neutralize. But that's not happening. So then I wonder, what's REALLY going on? It's just sickening to see people, whomever they are, being killed for no reason. In the back, running away, lying on the ground... there is absolutely NO NEED for this level of violence. I wonder if Armageddon isn't far ahead. I'm so glad I'm the age I'm at and not, say, 10 or 20. And this is not just in the US; it's everywhere, so just know I'm not pointing fingers.

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@longjon,

Ugh. Other than not knowing anything about me, you still suffer the same issue - you use extreme removal of context to 'bolster' your position, without one iota of actual reasoning.

Chauvin's situation was nothing like what you described.

- Chauvin had Floyd restrained (ie. he could have used less force)
- Floyd was no longer resisting (ie he should have used less force)
- Chauvin had other officers present (ie. the force he personally needed to use was lessened, and he should have used less force)
- Chauvin had time to consider what he was doing (ie. he had time to consider, and to chosse a better restraint)
- Chauvin had the training necessary to understand positional asphyxia (ie. he had the information necessary to choose a different restraint)
- Chauvin was informed multiple times that positional asphyxia was occurring (ie. He knew Floyd couldn't breath. He knew there was a risk of death. He could have chosen a different restraint technique)
....but still chose to lean on his neck and restrict his breathing until Floyd died.

And as I've said before - I am a big supporter of police. They do an incredibly difficult job, faced with volatile people where they have to make split second decisions that affect their safety, where people who have never faced an angry man before don't comprehend the use of force necessary to safely resolve particular situations...

Which once handcuffed with several officers present, and multiple minutes passing...is no longer what this is. The longer it passes, with a subject complaining of breathing issues - the further and further is goes from your 'example'.

Being a supporter of police doesn't mean supporting severely excessive use of force, nor criminal behaviour. There is a very vast difference between "split second decisions made in highly volatile situations"....and Chauvin's minutes long kneeling on the neck of a handcuffed person, with multiple other officers present, with Chauvin knowing about positional asphyxia and his prisoner complaining of breathing difficulties...

Human mistakes get made in dynamic and complex situations - which I find very understandable...but Chauvins situation, once Floyd was restrained, was no longer dynamic, nor particularly complex, with a decent probability outcome (dying)

So please, if you want to argue - use something that at least is close to the context, and contains some actual reasoning for your position.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

- restraining a non handcuffed, strongly resisting person takes more force than a handcuffed person, so
- once a person is handcuffed, the use of force should de-escalate.

I've been wondering about the situation. If I were face down on pavement, with my hands cuffed behind my back, I'm not at all sure I would be able to stand up at all without help.

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@vikorr,

TLDR

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@roger,

Quote:

If I were face down on pavement, with my hands cuffed behind my back, I'm not at all sure I would be able to stand up at all without help.

When these kinds of violent thuggs are high on all kinds of smack like Floyd was, it can give them adrenaline and enhanced strength. Just like that guy in Florida who was high on bath salts and then chewed that other guy's face off. That's why officers need to protect themselves from violent criminals resisting arrest.

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@longjon,

You forgot to make it pink.

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@roger,

Quote:

You forgot to make it pink.

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

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@longjon,

longjon wrote:

Quote:
If I were face down on pavement, with my hands cuffed behind my back, I'm not at all sure I would be able to stand up at all without help.

When these kinds of violent thuggs are high on all kinds of smack like Floyd was, it can give them adrenaline and enhanced strength. Just like that guy in Florida who was high on bath salts and then chewed that other guy's face off. That's why officers need to protect themselves from violent criminals resisting arrest.

Do you know of a case when a man who has been without pulse or breath for several minutes jumps up ( from a prone handcuffed position no less) and assaults someone?

Because that was the situation in this case.

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I bet Longjon’s either going to get this thread shut down, or himself suspended, or both.

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@snood,

Well, he certainly deserves to be suspended. Who in the hell grows these people?

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@roger,

roger wrote:

vikorr wrote:

- restraining a non handcuffed, strongly resisting person takes more force than a handcuffed person, so
- once a person is handcuffed, the use of force should de-escalate.

I've been wondering about the situation. If I were face down on pavement, with my hands cuffed behind my back, I'm not at all sure I would be able to stand up at all without help.

And breathing would be difficult in those circumstances, for anyone.

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The Derek Chauvin Trial

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