0
   

How stupid is Trump?

 
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2025 04:52 pm
@coluber2001,
Me too. Until I tried to deliver some paperwork to the VA. They were closed. Not even a note on the door to mention the holiday.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2025 06:08 pm
@coluber2001,
Except, of course, the many tens of millions who voted for him and are thrilled.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2025 06:10 pm
@Region Philbis,
Yes, be proud of the first western government in history, outside of South America, which tried to frame its political opposition into prison. No western government to my knowledge ever sank to this before.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 03:26 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Yes, be proud of the first western government in history, outside of South America, which tried to frame its political opposition into prison.

Since these members of the political opposition had actually broken laws, for which they were indicted, tried, and convicted, it wasn't necessary to frame any of them. They weren't "victims". Justice was served
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 04:02 am
@Brandon9000,
Do you have any proof?

In your own words mind, nothing by other people.

Otherwise you have to admit to being a loser.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 08:40 am
@hightor,
Okay, let's test that. Describe any one crime Trump may have committed. Don't just copy and paste a charge name but actually describe the supposed criminal action. I await your evasion.

I will not respond to anyone but hightor.
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 08:51 am
@Brandon9000,
He removed classified documents, hid them, and refused to return them. But we shouldn't limit the scope to Trump alone, as he may try to argue that taking the documents was part of his "official duties". I think the proven violations by election officials around the country, and their subsequent convictions, are more apropos as a response to your earlier comment.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 10:08 am
@Brandon9000,
You're evading me.

Too scared to answer?

You really are looking like a daft apeth.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 05:09 pm
@hightor,
All presidents leaving office have taken presidential documents. He wasn't even the person who packed them. Bill Clinton, while president, secretly removed documents from the National Archives and the solution was only to tell him not to do it any more. Sandy Berger, Clinton's National Security Advisor was found to have taken documents from the archives without proper authorization. He hid some of these documents on his person in order to take them out of the archives. He plead guilty to a misdemeanor.

Trump, just before leaving office, had the power to declassify any document he pleased for any reason or no reason.

I absolutely deny that Trump hid documents, and refused to return them. I insist that you cite your source. Provide the exact document name and the relevant quotations from it in quotation marks.
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 05:15 pm
@Brandon9000,
Why do you think anyone cares what you will or will not deny?

Your opinion is that of all lickspittles.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Reply Tue 21 Jan, 2025 05:24 pm
@hightor,
Brandon has a point, quote from the secret classified document Trump took.

It's not about Trump being guilty it's about your ability as a Russian spy.

You can see why such a top drawer thinker would vote for Trump.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  5  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2025 08:00 am

"I cannot tell a lie" ~ George Washington
"I cannot tell the truth" ~ Trump
"I cannot tell the difference" ~ MAGA
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2025 09:01 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
I insist that you cite your source. Provide the exact document name and the relevant quotations from it in quotation marks.


I think I've made it clear to you in previous arguments about the criminal accusations against Trump that I am not a lawyer. And it should be obvious that I don't have the access to the specific evidence in the documents case. All that information would be made public in a trial and a legal determination of Trump's guilt or innocence would have followed. The grand jury indictment brought 40 felony counts against Trump related to his alleged mishandling of classified documents. We might all have gotten this information if the Trump-appointed judge in this case hadn't prohibited its release.

Quote:
A federal judge in Florida stopped the Justice Department on Tuesday from releasing to Congress a potentially damning section of a report by the former special counsel, Jack Smith, detailing his lengthy investigation of President Trump’s mishandling of classified documents.

(...)

Judge Cannon, in her order, confirmed that the documents volume contained new, and potentially damaging, information that “has not been made public in court filings.”

That included “voluminous and detailed” discovery evidence about the allegations that Mr. Trump had illegally retained reams of classified materials after he left office in 2021. Some of that information, Judge Cannon wrote, described Mr. Trump’s “other bad acts” that were not charged in the indictment — a possible reference to other instances when he mishandled classified materials. source


The fact that Smith's two cases were discontinued before they went to trial is exactly why I suggested we look instead at the many cases of 2020 election interference and other misconduct by Republican officials in multiple states. You suggested that the political opposition was being unfairly hounded by a politicized Justice Department. I responded that election officials violated the law and that prosecution was a legal pursuit of justice and not politically motivated persecution.

The cases against fake electors and where they stand

Many of these criminal suspects have been arraigned but have yet to go to trial and it's to be expected that indicted officials will be pardoned by Trump. I hope you won't use this as an argument for their innocence.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2025 09:14 am
@Region Philbis,
Region Philbis wrote:


"I cannot tell a lie" ~ George Washington
"I cannot tell the truth" ~ Trump
"I cannot tell the difference" ~ MAGA


GREAT ONE, REG. ABSOLUTELY GREAT!

And, oh, so true.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  5  
Reply Wed 22 Jan, 2025 02:25 pm
Brandon is the epitome of "Deflect, deny, masturbate."
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2025 06:30 am
@hightor,
You made a specific and clear assertion, which you presented as an established fact:

"He removed classified documents, hid them, and refused to return them."

Cite a source. Give me a specific document name and the relevant quotations from it in quotation marks.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2025 07:16 am
@Brandon9000,
That would be a waste of time.

You're not interested in facts just stuff that reinforces your own prejudices.

You make ridiculous rules about sources, rules which you cannot follow when they're applied to the nonsense you spout.

You made the claim that Biden's o0ffice carried out political prosecutions yet cannot name one person prosecuted who did not warrant criminal charges.

Unable to live up to your own nonsensical rules you then start making up scores and saying who wins and who loses like a prepubescent.

And you seem to be of the opinion that people care about what you thin.

Nobody gives a monkey's about your opinion.

You may know a lot about science and that mullarky, but emotionally you've not developed since 13 and your debating skills are that of the kindergarten.

No wonder you find Roger Zelazny a challenging read.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2025 08:08 am
@Brandon9000,
Okay, I can see that this dialog is going nowhere. Yes, I said, "He removed classified documents, hid them, and refused to return them." I derived that information from news stories which were quite widely shared at the time.

Here's one:

Here are 11 key takeaways from the Trump classified documents indictment


In the 37-count indictment unsealed Friday, federal officials say Trump stored classified documents in a bathroom and suggested his lawyers not cooperate with a subpoena.

Quote:
Hiding documents in a shower. Showing national security secrets to a political aide and an author. And telling lawyers to simply not cooperate with a grand jury subpoena.

These are some of the allegations against Donald Trump in the bombshell federal indictment unsealed Friday, related to the more than 100 classified documents federal agents retrieved from the former president's Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida in August.

The indictment accuses Trump of breaking seven laws, including 31 counts of willful retention of national defense information and single counts of false statements and representations, conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding a document or record, corruptly concealing a document, concealing a document in a federal investigation and a scheme to conceal.

Trump has continued to insist that he did nothing wrong and that he is being unfairly targeted by President Joe Biden's administration.

"I had nothing to hide, nor do I now," Trump posted on his Truth Social platform Friday. "Nobody said I wasn't allowed to look at the personal records that I brought with me from the White House."

Here are some of the biggest revelations from the indictment:

Trump hid classified documents in a bathroom

Trump stored his boxes containing classified documents “in various locations” at Mar-a-Lago, including in a ballroom, an office space, his bedroom, a storage room and even a bathroom and shower, according to the indictment.

In April 2021, the indictment alleges, Trump employees transported some boxes from a Mar-a-Lago business center “to a bathroom and shower in The Mar-a-Lago Club’s Lake Room.”

The indictment even features a color photo of the scene: more than two dozen boxes on the bathroom's marble floor, stacked high in front of a shower with a crystal chandelier overhead.

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2023-06/230609-Trump-indictment-photo-2-al-1442-910af7.jpg
Boxes of records stored in a bathroom and shower in the Lake Room at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Fla.

Trump revealed classified documents to an author

Chief among the examples prosecutors lay out in the indictment of Trump sharing classified intelligence with unauthorized individuals took place during a July 2021 sit-down he had with an author and a publisher for an upcoming book on his presidency. Two Trump staffers without proper clearances were also in the room for the discussion.

While the indictment does not name the author and publisher, it does include a transcript of a conversation Trump had with the two about a classified military document described as a “plan of attack” against another country. That conversation, which stems from an audio recording, was reported earlier Friday by CNN.

“Secret. This is secret information,” Trump said. “Look, look at this."
Trump admitted that he didn't declassify the documents, and that they were still 'secret'

Trump has maintained that the Mar-a-Lago documents were declassified, because he was able to declassify any document he wanted, even without a specific process.

"You’re the president of the United States, you can declassify just by saying it’s declassified, even by thinking about it," Trump told Fox News host Sean Hannity in September 2022.

But the indictment indicates that Trump privately knew the documents were still secret.

At another point in his conversation with the author and publisher, Trump conceded he could no longer declassify the documents and did not do so when he was president.

“See as president, I could have declassified it,” Trump said. “Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”

“Yeah,” a staffer responded, laughing. “Now we have a problem.”

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2023-06/230609-trump-indictment-mn-1605-7ddd9a.jpg

Trump could easily have received a waiver to possess classified documents

The indictment explained that protocols do exist for former presidents to obtain a specific waiver of a rule — known as a “need-to-know” requirement” — that would have allowed Trump, under certain circumstances, to possess classified documents.

But Trump “did not obtain any such waiver after his presidency,” the charging document states.

Trump told someone not to stand too close a classified map


At his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, in August or September 2021, Trump reportedly showed “a classified map related to a military operation” to an aide who worked for his political action committee, according to the indictment. That person did not possess a security clearance.

Trump, the indictment states, “told the representative that he should not be showing it to the representative and that the representative should not get too close.”

Trump's documents contained national security secrets

The indictment outlines the sensitivity of some of the classified documents retained by Trump, as they related to national security.

According to the indictment, documents Trump took “included information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack.”

His disclosure of some of their documents' contents “could put at risk the national security of the United States, foreign relations, the safety of the United States military and human sources, and the continued viability of sensitive intelligence collection methods,” the indictment states.

Staffers freaked out as classified documents needed to be moved repeatedly

The indictment details multiple instances where documents were transported — or cleaned up — by staffers who lacked proper security clearances to be in contact with such information.

At first, photos showed the documents stacked high on a ballroom stage at Mar-a-Lago. They were later moved to a “business center” at the Florida resort. It was then that an unnamed Trump staffer messaged another employee asking if the boxes could be moved elsewhere so that the business center could be transformed into a workspace for fellow Trump aides.

“Woah!!” the second staffer responded. “OK so potus specifically asked [Trump’s valet] Walt [Nauta] for those boxes to be in the business center because they are his ‘papers.’”

Later, they discussed moving the boxes to “a little room in the shower” for storage. The indictment then includes a photo of the boxes stacked high in a bathroom.

By December 2021, some of the boxes that had been relocated to a storage room fell, with their contents spilling all over the floor. Nauta, who was also charged in the indictment, messaged a second staffer: “I opened the door and found this …” He attached photos of the spill.

“Oh no oh no,” the person responded, adding, “I’m sorry, potus had my phone.”

Classified documents came from a number of federal agencies

Classified documents Trump kept after his presidency ended originated from a plethora of the top national security and law enforcement agencies of the U.S. government. Among them: the CIA, the Department of Defense, the National Security Agency, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office, the Department of Energy, the Department of State and its Bureau of Intelligence Research, according to the indictment.

Trump suggested his lawyers should not 'play ball' with the grand jury subpoena

In May 2022, following a subpoena from the grand jury for all classified documents, Trump met with his lawyers, who told him that they needed to search for the requested items.

But Trump waved off his attorneys’ attempts to comply, according to the indictment, which recounted a series of conversations Trump had with his attorneys.

“I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes,” Trump said.

At another point, Trump said, “What happens if we just don’t respond at all or don’t play ball with them?”

“Isn’t it better if there are no documents?” he said, according to his attorneys’ records.

https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2023-06/230609-trump-indictment-mn-1608-581ed8.jpg

Trump made a ‘funny’ ‘plucking’ motion

The indictment recounts an interaction between Trump and one of his lawyers when they were discussing what to do with a folder containing documents with classified markings. The lawyer recounted that Trump made a “plucking” motion that seemed to indicate the lawyer should just remove the incriminating papers.

“He made a funny motion as though — well okay why don’t you take them with you to your hotel room and if there’s anything really bad in there, like, you know, pluck it out,” the lawyer said. “And that was the motion that he made. He didn’t say that.”

Trump wanted his lawyers to takes notes from Hillary Clinton’s attorney

The indictment describes a conversation Trump had with two attorneys while discussing the document probe in May 2022. As one of the attorneys relayed, Trump was fixated on how an attorney for his 2016 Democratic presidential rival Hillary Clinton handled an investigation into her use of a private email server while she served as secretary of state.

“[H]e was great, he did a great job,” Trump said of the Clinton attorney whose name was redacted in the indictment. “You know what? He said, he said that it — that it was him. That he was the one who deleted all of her emails, the 30,000 emails, because they basically dealt with her scheduling and her going to the gym and her having beauty appointments. And he was great. And he, so she didn’t get into any trouble because he said that he was the one who deleted them.”

Trump, according to one of the attorneys, relayed that story multiple times that day.

Of course, Trump pilloried Clinton on the campaign trail for her use of the email server, making it central to his candidacy.

nbcnews

This is one of the many accounts which covered the story and form the factual basis for Smith's indictment of Trump. Since the case was dismissed by a Trump-appointed judge, the charges were never legally presented in a trial. If you want to exonerate Trump of all wrongdoing because the case was thrown out or because you think he is covered by presidential immunity, go for it.

You may be convinced that you have "won" something but you certainly haven't convinced me that the president's actions weren't an attempt to cloak his criminal behavior.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2025 08:16 am
@hightor,
Brandon is the arch sealion on A2K, insisting you look up this, find proof of that, and document the other only for him to turn his nose up and go, "Nah."

It's deliberate time wasting.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 23 Jan, 2025 09:27 pm
@hightor,
Not a citation. Not what I asked for.

I can't very well tell you that Kamala Harris once slapped a woman who asked her for street directions, then, when you ask for evidence, give you 10 pages of claims with no document name or identification of the source and discussing 40 different subjects.

You made a perfectly simple, single assertion - "He removed classified documents, hid them, and refused to return them."

From the trillion documents on the Internet give me the exact name of one document and quotations from that one document that are relevant to your specific claim.
 

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