3
   

Religions and supernatural beliefs are the enemy of world peace, as shown by 5000 years of war.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 06:04 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Ok Frank.

Do you believe that slavery is wrong? Or is this just an opinion.


It is my opinion that slavery is wrong.

Is it your opinion that slavery is not wrong?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 06:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yes Frank

1. I believe that Slavery is wrong.
2. The belief that slavery is wrong is a supernatural belief.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 06:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
Just to be clear...

The OP is trying to say that his beliefs are superior to other people's beliefs, because the beliefs of other people are "supernatural". The implication is that the OP's beliefs aren't supernatural. That is what I am calling bullshit.

All human belief systems are based on beliefs that can't be proven by experiment. Everyone has things that they can't prove... they just know that it is true. That is the definition of "faith".

We all strongly believe that slavery is wrong. We all take this as a matter of faith.

Slavery exists (in several forms) in the Animal kingdom, from ants that raid other colonies to get enslaved workers to primates where the alpha male physically controls a harem and keeps other males from reproducing.

In order for you to believe that slavery is wrong in humans, you need to believe that

1. Humans are fundamentally different than animals
2. Humans are born with rights to dignity and freedom.

We all believe these things without proof (although for most of human history slavery has been morally acceptable). So all of a sudden these moral values are somehow absolute, unquestionable truth. There is no scientific experiment to say that slavery, or caste systems, or domination of one individual over another is wrong... and in the animal kingdom I think most of us accept that animals don't have these moral restrictions.

Believing things to be absolute truth without any proof is the definition of supernatural. That is how faith works.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Yes Frank

1. I believe that Slavery is wrong.
2. The belief that slavery is wrong is a supernatural belief.



Not sure what you mean by "supernatural."

A thing either exists...or does not exist.

If a thing exists...it is a part of nature. If gods exist...they are a part of nature; if ghosts exist...they are a part of nature; if Heaven or Hell exist...they are a part of nature.

If you have a problem with my opinion that slavery is wrong, Max, so be it. There are people who are of the opinion that there is nothing whatever wrong with slavery...and many more people who were of that opinion throughout history.

Jesus was one...St. Paul was another...the god of the Bible was another. Lots of southern America landowners were also.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:24 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Just to be clear...

The OP is trying to say that his beliefs are superior to other people's beliefs, because the beliefs of other people are "supernatural". The implication is that the OP's beliefs aren't supernatural. That is what I am calling bullshit.

All human belief systems are based on beliefs that can't be proven by experiment. Everyone has things that they can't prove... they just know that it is true. That is the definition of "faith".

We all strongly believe that slavery is wrong. We all take this as a matter of faith.

Slavery exists (in several forms) in the Animal kingdom, from ants that raid other colonies to get enslaved workers to primates where the alpha male physically controls a harem and keeps other males from reproducing.

In order for you to believe that slavery is wrong in humans, you need to believe that

1. Humans are fundamentally different than animals
2. Humans are born with rights to dignity and freedom.

We all believe these things without proof (although for most of human history slavery has been morally acceptable). So all of a sudden these moral values are somehow absolute, unquestionable truth. There is no scientific experiment to say that slavery, or caste systems, or domination of one individual over another is wrong... and in the animal kingdom I think most of us accept that animals don't have these moral restrictions.

Believing things to be absolute truth without any proof is the definition of supernatural. That is how faith works.




If you want to insist that "we all" "believe" the stuff you mentioned, fine with me.

I am of the opinion you are wrong.

I know for a fact that I do not "believe" any of those things.

I hold them as opinions...or estimates, or suppositions, or whatever. But I do not do "believing."

It is my opinion that more clarity can be obtained in discussions of this sort if everyone refrained from this "I believe" stuff.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
A supernatural belief is something you believe without proof.

You and I both believe that slavery is wrong. That isn't the issue. The issue is that you believe that your supernatural beliefs are superior to other people's supernatural beliefs. They are not (in any objective way).

You have a set of core beliefs that you know to be true even though you can't prove them.

All I am saying is that you are not superior to religious people. You have your supernatural beliefs. They have theirs. Supernatural beliefs are part of being human, if you are human, you have them.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:34 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

A supernatural belief is something you believe without proof.

You and I both believe that slavery is wrong. That isn't the issue. The issue is that you believe that your supernatural beliefs are superior to other people's supernatural beliefs. They are not (in any objective way).

You have a set of core beliefs that you know to be true even though you can't prove them.

All I am saying is that you are not superior to religious people. You have your supernatural beliefs. They have theirs. Supernatural beliefs are part of being human, if you are human, you have them.


I do not ******* "believe" that slavery is wrong.

It is my opinion that slavery is wrong.

If you want to express your opinions as "beliefs"...do so. That is fine with me.

If you want to insist that I also must do so...you can go **** yourself, Max.

At no point do I express my opinions, predilections, estimates or guesses...as "beliefs." I do not do "believing."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
It is my opinion that slavery is wrong.


1. It is my opinion that there should be a stimulus package.
2. It is my opinion that Justin Bieber is a hack.

3. It is my solid belief that slavery is wrong.

The difference between an opinion and belief is not a matter of degree. I am completely sure that slavery is wrong... there is no doubt.

Your ability to say that your view on slavery is only an opinion is commendable... I respect your consistency.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 07:46 am
@maxdancona,
My core belief is that human beings have rights. This is not an opinion, it is simply true.

I state this without any proof. It is an article of faith. That is what makes it a supernatural belief.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:22 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Be a Gnostic and recognize the evil of religions


I take this to mean that Gnosticism is superior to these religions (which have "evil").

Is Gnosticism better than any other religion?

If you are going to play the "Gnoticism isn't a religion" crap... then I will change the question.

"Is Gnosticism better than any other belief system"?


It holds the best ideology that I have found to date, and being the best means that if I find any moral tenets that are superior to what is now at hand, I can accept it while discarding the older inferior moral tenet.

Here is a quick snapshot of where I stand on all religions, including mine.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Religions and supernatural beliefs are the enemy of world peace, as shown by 5000 years of war.

Supernatural believing faith-based religious hierarchies have been lying so much to their people that the more vulnerable of their people actually believe the --- mythical, allegorical, imaginary icons that they are persuaded,--- against all logic and reason, --- to believe in as real.

That is abuse to a mind.

A mind is a person’s most treasured possession and to allow liars and con men to effect and infect so many minds, --- should be made illegal, as well as a sin, --- but of course, --- the world is not ready for a moral religious lesson.

Logic, reason, logos, intelligent thinking, --- it seems, --- are no match against the vile con men who run the religions and the mythos they and the faith poison they use to damage precious minds.

We and our ancestors have paid a high price to the religious con men that have damaged so many minds. A huge price in minds, cash as well as; world peace.

Those con men should be censored.

Religions are a good thing. They have just forgotten that they were created to produce peace.

Not the God damned God produced 5,000 years of our war filled history.

While those same religions oppressed non-believers, women and gays. As the majority, the religious also impose poverty.

The supernatural belief fostered by the mainstream, --- immoral, homophobic, and misogynous religions, --- and their con men hierarchy, --- are not a friend to peace.

They should be outlawed as soon as possible.

This would allow what Jesus preached in terms of electing a human God.

Human Gods can make peace and I suggest we elect one, as in the Roman System, democracy; to bring peace to the world that we are God damned destroying for our children.

Their precious minds are in your hands.

Logos or mythos must be chosen by all.

Peace wants Logos, not mythos, faith, or an unproven supernatural concept of any kind.

Trust the method for peace that Jesus preached. Elect a God. A man.

Jesus asked his people if they had forgotten that they were Gods.

Most had, but not the Gnostics who had taught the Roman Jesus.

Be a Gnostic and recognize the evil of religions, as well as the good parts.

I would prefer to focus on the good, but my love has created a great hate for the religious con men who harm so many.

That hate forces me to call them out, even as I recognize the need for community churches. Less so now as in the past.

Our world cannot afford to lose good minds to religious faith based supernatural thinking that is helping to destroy our world.

Peace and decent morality would like to prevail.

Be decent parents and people and tell your children that there is nothing to fear from the supernatural, because there is only good, in what you can imagine somehow; even if you do not see it in your imagination immediately. Think dreams.

Minds are too precious to allow frivolous impairment with supernatural beliefs.

Save your mind by discarding faith without facts and the imaginary supernatural realm.

Please.

Regards
DL



In a discussion of topics like this, "beliefs" are merely blind guesses about the REALITY.

Some people blindly guess there is at least one god...and that the god can be offended or pleased by things humans do...and will reward what pleases and punish what offends.

Some people blindly guess that there is a "higher something" that has no concerns about what humans do or do not do.

Some people blindly guess there are no gods.

Some people simply avoid blindly guessing on the issue; acknowledge that they do not know enough about the REALITY to comment on it...and then live their lives as best they can according to standards they set for themselves.

Seems we have discussed this in other fora, DL.

So what's up?


Not me, as I have not bumped into a decent apologist for some time.

We both seem to recognize that most are in Socrates' cave and looking at shadows of reality.

Gnosis is for those who seek the real reality.

We think it better than doing as Christians do in thinking that a genocidal god and his homophobic and misogynous religions are somehow good.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:36 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Ok Frank.

Do you believe that slavery is wrong? Or is this just an opinion.


I have not yet looked at franks answer, but wanted to know if you agreed with Jesus ands the old Christians who did not denounce slavery.

I do, given that the only options slaves had was to turn to begging or die.

Mind you, a skilled slave could buy his freedom, depending on the rules for slaves at any given point in time.

Slavery back then is what we would call our social safety net today.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:37 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Yes Frank

1. I believe that Slavery is wrong.
2. The belief that slavery is wrong is a supernatural belief.



How did you access the supernatural realm?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:45 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

My core belief is that human beings have rights. This is not an opinion, it is simply true.

I state this without any proof. It is an article of faith. That is what makes it a supernatural belief.



I think you are miss-using the terms

Get the dictionary definitions for faith and supernatural and we can compare.

Regards
DL
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:54 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

My core belief is that human beings have rights. This is not an opinion, it is simply true.

I state this without any proof. It is an article of faith. That is what makes it a supernatural belief.



I think you are miss-using the terms

Get the dictionary definitions for faith and supernatural and we can compare.

Regards
DL



su·per·nat·u·ral
/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
Cómo se pronuncia
adjective
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"

I am using the word correctly. Now... tell me how humans have rights based on science or the laws of nature.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 02:55 pm
@Greatest I am,
As I said...

This is just another my religion is better than their religion thread.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Nov, 2020 03:00 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Not me, as I have not bumped into a decent apologist for some time.

We both seem to recognize that most are in Socrates' cave and looking at shadows of reality.

Gnosis is for those who seek the real reality.

We think it better than doing as Christians do in thinking that a genocidal god and his homophobic and misogynous religions are somehow good.

Regards
DL


Thanks for your reply, DL.

I'm not a fan of labels. I try to use "agnostic" as a descriptor as little as possible...and much prefer to state my take on REALITY questions with specificity.

In any case, I think many of us who are outside mainstream "Christianity" tend to be more observant of the teachings ascribed to Jesus...than the people who publicly proclaim their "Christianity." Especially the evangelical Christians of America...who seem to **** on those teachings...and instead tout nonsense to which Jesus never spoke.
Greatest I am
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2020 03:12 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

My core belief is that human beings have rights. This is not an opinion, it is simply true.

I state this without any proof. It is an article of faith. That is what makes it a supernatural belief.



I think you are miss-using the terms

Get the dictionary definitions for faith and supernatural and we can compare.

Regards
DL



su·per·nat·u·ral
/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/
Cómo se pronuncia
adjective
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
"a supernatural being"

I am using the word correctly. Now... tell me how humans have rights based on science or the laws of nature.


Not when applying the same definition to faith.

You know that already and that is why you did only half the job, child.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2020 03:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

As I said...

This is just another my religion is better than their religion thread.


Yes, and mine is demonstrably better than Christianity.

We call evil evil while Christians call their evil genocidal Yahweh good.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2020 03:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Not me, as I have not bumped into a decent apologist for some time.

We both seem to recognize that most are in Socrates' cave and looking at shadows of reality.

Gnosis is for those who seek the real reality.

We think it better than doing as Christians do in thinking that a genocidal god and his homophobic and misogynous religions are somehow good.

Regards
DL


Thanks for your reply, DL.

I'm not a fan of labels. I try to use "agnostic" as a descriptor as little as possible...and much prefer to state my take on REALITY questions with specificity.

In any case, I think many of us who are outside mainstream "Christianity" tend to be more observant of the teachings ascribed to Jesus...than the people who publicly proclaim their "Christianity." Especially the evangelical Christians of America...who seem to **** on those teachings...and instead tout nonsense to which Jesus never spoke.


You see 20/20 on the Christian right wing.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
 

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