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Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

 
 
Reply Wed 22 Apr, 2020 07:15 am
Can Yahweh always do what he wills, or can people thwart him?

Scriptures seem conflicted on the answer.

They show an all-powerful god whose plan and will cannot be thwarted or derailed, while at the same time indicating that he cannot do his will and that people can derail his plan to save everyone.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you have faith?

If you do, you cannot believe in hell. You would not think god a loser by believing he saves us all, as his will indicates. Those scriptures say he has no need of a hell for us.

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

Regards
DL
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livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Apr, 2020 10:22 am
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

We are all God's children, made in His image, so whatever we do is part and parcel of what He does; i.e. He is acting through us. The problem is that God's power includes the power to oppose Himself, so in the story of Lucifer, an angel of God falls to the temptation to compete against God for worship due to his own pride. So there's nothing in Lucifer that is not created by God, i.e. the pride that drives him to compete with God instead of serving Him can't be attributed to something beyond God. We as humans can't have the capacity to experience pride except insofar as we were created in God's image, so pride and sin are latent potentials within the creation and our essence, all of which was created by God in His image.

In the story of Noah's flood, God very clearly fails at destroying all humans to rid the world of sin, yet He ultimately forgives them/us and pledges never to destroy us against because of sin. So you could say that God is in conflict with His own sinful propensities, which He sees manifest in humanity and the creation generally.

So now you ask specifically about us all being saved, to which the Bible says,
Quote:

Romans 5:8
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Some people claim Paul wasn't a direct disciple of Jesus, so what he says doesn't count, but he makes an astute observation here, which is that Christ died for us 'while we were still sinners,' and that means that every sinner, in other words everyone, was forgiven by Christ when He died for them. Christ didn't live/die for the righteous but for sinners, and He also noted that even the righteous are sinners, so technically He died for everyone so that we don't have to die of our own sin.

Now then you ask if we are all saved while we are sinners, why do we have to do anything to receive that salvation. The simple answer is because we have the freedom to deny Christ and blasphemy Holy Spirit or otherwise choose a path of unrepentance. In that case, we can fight off second-birth, but we can't escape from the fact that Christ died for us (sinners) on the cross, because He did and our salvation is thus bought and paid for and waiting for us whenever we finally turn our hearts around to accept it.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Apr, 2020 01:49 pm
@Greatest I am,
According to the story, God awarded people free will. So, yes, people can yes people can thwart....though there may be consequences.

Consequence 1) eternal damnation

Consequence 2) future generations suffer due to the sins of their genealogical predecessors.

Remember, "the Lord thy God is a vengeful God." -'Hebrews chapter 10, verses 30 and 31.

In the old testament, God is jealous and vengeful. - Nahum chapter 1, verse 2.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2020 02:46 pm
@Sturgis,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'eternal damnation'?

When the book gives clear unambiguous definitions of it, I look at all the references in light of that one. It says 'The wages of sin is death'. I assume that means the last and final one.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2020 02:54 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
...eternal damnation


Suffering in Hell for the rest of all eternity. All time. No possibility of exit...ever!

As to knowing what is meant, it's open to interpretation. Having been translated and modernized for centuries, it may be nothing close to the original text.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2020 03:03 pm
@Sturgis,
Don’t read Hebrew or Greek but I got 'Strongs' for translation. KJV is my go to version.
When I read it, it looks like both Hell an death are utterly eliminated (along with Satan et al) from any existence at the end of the story. So whatever damnation is, it doesn’t sound like it’s eternal. Except in the way that death is. No suffering there I wouldn’t think.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2020 03:32 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Don’t read Hebrew or Greek but I got 'Strongs' for translation. KJV is my go to version.
When I read it, it looks like both Hell an death are utterly eliminated (along with Satan et al) from any existence at the end of the story. So whatever damnation is, it doesn’t sound like it’s eternal. Except in the way that death is. No suffering there I wouldn’t think.

Some people consider Dante's Inferno silly, but it makes the point that punishments fit the sins/crimes they are for.

Catholicism has the concept of purgatory to pay for sin and nevertheless eventually ascend to heaven, which is possible through forgiveness and grace.

But is there also eternal damnation for those who persistently reject grace/salvation/faith? Maybe, but how long could you hold out before giving faith a try as an exit from eternal suffering?

Then the question is if you can always convert after you're already in hell/purgatory, what's the hurry? Why not 'enjoy sin' as long as you can?
Answer: the moment you realize a sin is sinful and you dismiss it and just keep going with it, you are defying the spirit of repentance, so at that point you're doing something much worse than when you sin unknowingly.
Think of it this way: if someone accidentally sits on your phone and breaks it, you could easily forgive the mistake if they got you a new phone; but if someone sees your phone before sitting down and then goes ahead and sits on it anyway, it's harder to forgive them even if they offer to buy you a new one;i.e. because they had the opportunity to just avoid breaking it and creating the whole situation in the first place.
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Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 01:33 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Do you see god as too incompetent to do his will of saving us all?

Or do you see god as a universalist god who does his will and saves us all?

We are all God's children, made in His image, so whatever we do is part and parcel of what He does; i.e. He is acting through us. The problem is that God's power includes the power to oppose Himself, so in the story of Lucifer, an angel of God falls to the temptation to compete against God for worship due to his own pride. So there's nothing in Lucifer that is not created by God, i.e. the pride that drives him to compete with God instead of serving Him can't be attributed to something beyond God. We as humans can't have the capacity to experience pride except insofar as we were created in God's image, so pride and sin are latent potentials within the creation and our essence, all of which was created by God in His image.

In the story of Noah's flood, God very clearly fails at destroying all humans to rid the world of sin, yet He ultimately forgives them/us and pledges never to destroy us against because of sin. So you could say that God is in conflict with His own sinful propensities, which He sees manifest in humanity and the creation generally.

So now you ask specifically about us all being saved, to which the Bible says,
Quote:

Romans 5:8
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Some people claim Paul wasn't a direct disciple of Jesus, so what he says doesn't count, but he makes an astute observation here, which is that Christ died for us 'while we were still sinners,' and that means that every sinner, in other words everyone, was forgiven by Christ when He died for them. Christ didn't live/die for the righteous but for sinners, and He also noted that even the righteous are sinners, so technically He died for everyone so that we don't have to die of our own sin.

Now then you ask if we are all saved while we are sinners, why do we have to do anything to receive that salvation. The simple answer is because we have the freedom to deny Christ and blasphemy Holy Spirit or otherwise choose a path of unrepentance. In that case, we can fight off second-birth, but we can't escape from the fact that Christ died for us (sinners) on the cross, because He did and our salvation is thus bought and paid for and waiting for us whenever we finally turn our hearts around to accept it.


You do not know your bible nor what a decent moral sense looks like.

First. On Jesus dying for you.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh.

Second, on your anti-biblical view of us having a free will to decide to believe or not.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL


Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 01:37 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

According to the story, God awarded people free will. So, yes, people can yes people can thwart....though there may be consequences.

Consequence 1) eternal damnation

Consequence 2) future generations suffer due to the sins of their genealogical predecessors.

Remember, "the Lord thy God is a vengeful God." -'Hebrews chapter 10, verses 30 and 31.

In the old testament, God is jealous and vengeful. - Nahum chapter 1, verse 2.


If we can thwart an all powerful god who has super powers of persuasion, then that omni-patience part must be a lie.

As to your notion of free will. That is not biblical at all and is refuted by the link I just put above for the last poster. Please have a look.

Regards
DL
.

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Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 01:41 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'eternal damnation'?

When the book gives clear unambiguous definitions of it, I look at all the references in light of that one. It says 'The wages of sin is death'. I assume that means the last and final one.


If the wages of sin are death, after an appropriate purposeless torture in hell, why did Yahweh murder his two first children, A & E, by neglect and locking away what would have kept them alive, the tree of life.

He did mean the death of the soul, as you indicate with the final death, so why did he murder their bodies here on earth? That is like double the punishment. Right?

Regards
DL
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 05:01 pm
@Greatest I am,
Greatest I am wrote:

Leadfoot wrote:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'eternal damnation'?

When the book gives clear unambiguous definitions of it, I look at all the references in light of that one. It says 'The wages of sin is death'. I assume that means the last and final one.


If the wages of sin are death, after an appropriate purposeless torture in hell, why did Yahweh murder his two first children, A & E, by neglect and locking away what would have kept them alive, the tree of life.

He did mean the death of the soul, as you indicate with the final death, so why did he murder their bodies here on earth? That is like double the punishment. Right?


You would be able to answer these kinds of questions for yourself if you studied and reflected on the stories with your conscience instead of making it all into victim narratives to rebel against God.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 05:30 am
@Greatest I am,
DL, Think I must be on a 'receive only' connection because you can’t hear me.

All the best to you.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 May, 2020 06:02 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
You do not know your bible..

First. On Jesus dying for you. It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for you, after condemning you unjustly in the first place.
Claiming a person doesn't know the Bible, and then implying the bible doesn't say what it says is quite inane.

Quote:
It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
Sure if you chose another to take your place. Did humanity choose this course? According to the Bible, this course was chosen by God, so it would be him you would have to call immoral (if you wished to continue pursuing that line of thought). Your other related verses would have meaning - if they were aimed at the divine, rather than humanity.

In relation to 'free will' video - Did you actually watch it and reference (read) the passages and context?

The author has simply taken what was convenient to him, removed from context, and translated in a way suitable to his message:
- the John reading quotes Isaiah, and you believe in the Old Testament...and it is immediately followed by "Many people did believe in him, however, including some of the Jewish leaders. But they wouldn’t admit it for fear that the Pharisees would expel them from the synagogue."
- Any normal reading of the 2 Corinthians chapter 3 shows that each had free will, as immediately following talk of the 'veil, there is "But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

I'm not even Christian (used to be decades back), but sloppy logic, and avoidance (here, of you ensuring the context is correct) are easy enough to see.

If you phrased Christianity as a theological tango, you would be more accurate. There absolutely is one. Same goes for our other major world religion - its tango exists in the vast spaces between the Qurans frequent hate speech towards other religions & tolerance, and the vast space between the Qurans verses on violence, and peace.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 01:24 pm
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Leadfoot wrote:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'eternal damnation'?

When the book gives clear unambiguous definitions of it, I look at all the references in light of that one. It says 'The wages of sin is death'. I assume that means the last and final one.


If the wages of sin are death, after an appropriate purposeless torture in hell, why did Yahweh murder his two first children, A & E, by neglect and locking away what would have kept them alive, the tree of life.

He did mean the death of the soul, as you indicate with the final death, so why did he murder their bodies here on earth? That is like double the punishment. Right?


You would be able to answer these kinds of questions for yourself if you studied and reflected on the stories with your conscience instead of making it all into victim narratives to rebel against God.


I did answer for myself, as you can see, and just asked our friend to confirm my views.

You did not refute my conclusions, so thanks for trying to deflect.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 01:31 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Sure if you chose another to take your place. Did humanity choose this course?


Yes humanity must choose. All of us individually.

I am told daily that if I do not accept Jesus' free gift, not quite free that is, I will not be saved.

I, and all people who wish to ride Jesus as our scapegoat must abdicate our responsibility for our sins.

Do you see that as moral thinking and ethical actions?

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 01:38 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:


In relation to 'free will' video - Did you actually watch it and reference (read) the passages and context?



Perhaps not as much as you did, IDK, because I did not have to to know the truth of it.

That proof of concept is shown when Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's soft heart, that was going to let the people go, to a harder stance that had him refuse to comply with Moses' wishes.

Show where the author erred instead of just making a claim and I can have a look.

Use his bible as there are many corrupted version these days.

Regards
DL
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 03:38 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
That proof of concept is shown when Yahweh hardened Pharaoh's soft heart, that was going to let the people go, to a harder stance that had him refuse to comply with Moses' wishes.

Show where the author erred instead of just making a claim and I can have a look.
Are you skim reading? I directly quoted where the Author was in error - and in each instance it was from the verse immediately following the verses he claimed showed a lack of free will.

You engaged in sloppiness when watching the video, likely because it matched what you want to believe, and engaged in sloppiness in reading my reply, likely because it served what you want to believe. So then, what other areas of your beliefs are you engaging in this sort of sloppiness?
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 May, 2020 03:47 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
Yes humanity must choose. All of us individually.

I am told daily that if I do not accept Jesus' free gift, not quite free that is, I will not be saved.

I, and all people who wish to ride Jesus as our scapegoat must abdicate our responsibility for our sins.

Do you see that as moral thinking and ethical actions?

Regards
DL
Ahhh....I see...completely and utterly avoid that according to the Christian bible, God said it was his plan all along. So, only see what you want to see...

Then call accepting such a gift immoral...by rephrasing it the way you want to rephrase it...

...so that you can believe what you want to believe.

From a personal point of view, I think we should all take responsibility for every decision that we make (and that there are contributing circumstances for each decision), and if we fall down - well then, we get back up, and keep growing to continually become better people. This is my perspective. From that perspective, I don't much care for views that excuse people from making a decision to keep growing and becoming better people throughout their lives.

You obviously have a set of beliefs that you want to believe in...and dismiss others based on your desire to not believe it such. But to apply such sloppy logic to others, you must have sloppy logic to start with...which may be blinding you in your own beliefs. This is very, very far from heading towards 'Greatest I am'.
Greatest I am
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2020 03:16 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Yes humanity must choose. All of us individually.

I am told daily that if I do not accept Jesus' free gift, not quite free that is, I will not be saved.

I, and all people who wish to ride Jesus as our scapegoat must abdicate our responsibility for our sins.

Do you see that as moral thinking and ethical actions?

Regards
DL
Ahhh....I see...completely and utterly avoid that according to the Christian bible, God said it was his plan all along. So, only see what you want to see...

Then call accepting such a gift immoral...by rephrasing it the way you want to rephrase it...

...so that you can believe what you want to believe.

From a personal point of view, I think we should all take responsibility for every decision that we make (and that there are contributing circumstances for each decision), and if we fall down - well then, we get back up, and keep growing to continually become better people. This is my perspective. From that perspective, I don't much care for views that excuse people from making a decision to keep growing and becoming better people throughout their lives.

You obviously have a set of beliefs that you want to believe in...and dismiss others based on your desire to not believe it such. But to apply such sloppy logic to others, you must have sloppy logic to start with...which may be blinding you in your own beliefs. This is very, very far from heading towards 'Greatest I am'.


Yes I have a set of beliefs that are way more moral that that produced by the genocidal Yahweh or his immoral religion.

You should seek a moral ideology as well.

To you other post.

I gave a proof of concept for our lack of a free will in Christian dogma.

You wisely chose not to attempt to refute the logic and reason.

Thanks for not wasting both of our time.

Regards
DL
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2020 09:10 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
I gave a proof of concept for our lack of a free will in Christian dogma.

You wisely chose not to attempt to refute the logic and reason.

Thanks for not wasting both of our time.
I don't particularly care what the Bible has to say on free will...though what exactly you bothered to read of my reply, in order to come to this conclusion, I don't know. Quite possibly little to nothing I wrote?

Here's the simple facts of what I said (some implied):
- you didn't give a proof of concept - you gave a video link by someone else
- you didn't bother checking the 'facts' nor context of that video
- had you bothered, you would have found out that the video author was clearly misrepresenting the context of the verses he quoted (and thereby the ultimate meaning of the verses)

As I've said with other posters - I'm happy for people to believe what they want to believe, so long as it's well thought through. Hence my reply to your poorly considered post.

Of course, if you are the sort of person that wastes their time considering only convenient facts/concepts that agree with what you want to believe - that too is up to you. And of course, if you post such on a forum they are likely to be challenged.
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