To Coronavirus deniers... at what point do you admit you are wrong?

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This is another case where the scientific community is almost completely in agreement and the science is undeniable. The corona virus is a serious threat that could kill millions of people.

The arguments being made by Coronavirus deniers seem to be along these lines.

1) Not that many people have died (yet).
2) It is a political hoax.
3) It is no more deadly than the flu.

The data tells a completely different story.

1) The virus spreads rapidly ... the number of cases in the US is doubling every 3-4 days.
2) The death rate is about 20 times higher than the flu.
3) This is an international crisis that is playing out in many countries without regard to politics.

The facts are so clear... what does it take to get the deniers to see them?

To answer the same question: if you show me solid scientific data that the number of cases isn't growing exponentially, or that that people aren't dying at a much higher rate than flu victims... I will change my mind and agree with you. Show me the data?

(If all you have is number of deaths... that proves nothing. Exponential growth means that number will rapidly increase.)

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@maxdancona,

This is my rule to live by... I think I will call it Max's laws of experts.

Quote:

On issues where ignorant people are panicking but expert don't consider serious, you should listen to the experts. (Herpes and Genetically modified foods are exmples of this).

On the other hand, on issues where the experts are panicking and ignorant people are brushing off, then you should listen to the experts.

1 Reply

Let's see what Ron Paul has to say...

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

This is another case where the scientific community is almost completely in agreement and the science is undeniable. The corona virus is a serious threat that could kill millions of people.

The arguments being made by Coronavirus deniers seem to be along these lines.

1) Not that many people have died (yet).
2) It is a political hoax.
3) It is no more deadly than the flu.

The data tells a completely different story.

1) The virus spreads rapidly ... the number of cases in the US is doubling every 3-4 days.
2) The death rate is about 20 times higher than the flu.
3) This is an international crisis that is playing out in many countries without regard to politics.

The facts are so clear... what does it take to get the deniers to see them?

To answer the same question: if you show me solid scientific data that the number of cases isn't growing exponentially, or that that people aren't dying at a much higher rate than flu victims... I will change my mind and agree with you. Show me the data?

(If all you have is number of deaths... that proves nothing. Exponential growth means that number will rapidly increase.)

There is a disconnect in the news:

If it is as contagious and deadly as you say, then vaccines would be rushed through testing and mass-distributed for free to contain the threat asap.

The fact that normal drug testing protocols aren't being modified suggests that governments aren't actually concerned enough to expedite mass-vaccination.

Only time will tell for sure, though.

2 Replies

@livinglava,

Let me make this clear... so LivingLava

You are saying that if I show you a story about researches relaxing protocols so they can fast track vaccine development for this virus, you will change your mind and accept that this is serious.

Right?

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@maxdancona,

Vaccine production is likely going as fast as it can.

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@maxdancona,

Experts over here have said that GM foods haven't been tested adequately. You'd rather listen to "experts" in the pay of Monsanto.

Your law on experts tends to mirror that of Trump's, if it fits in with your ideology fine, if not rubbish it.

We don't want your GM crap over here.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Experts over here have said that GM foods haven't been tested adequately.

Anti-science nutcases are hardly experts.

izzythepush wrote:

We don't want your GM crap over here.

Too bad. Progress marches on, and Europe is going to have to adapt to the future whether they like it or not.

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@livinglava,

"The fact that normal drug testing protocols aren't being modified...."

Or maybe it suggests that those protocols have the steps they have for a reason.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Experts over here have said that GM foods haven't been tested adequately. You'd rather listen to "experts" in the pay of Monsanto.

Your law on experts tends to mirror that of Trump's, if it fits in with your ideology fine, if not rubbish it.

We don't want your GM crap over here.

Are you a Trump fan Izzy? The claim you are making that Trump puts science over politics is .... I don't know what to say about that. You are full of crap.

We should follow the science on all of these issues. I support the science on GM foods. I also support the science on Climate Change, Vaccinations and the geometric shape of the Earth.

We are trying to get rid of Trump here.... and here Izzy is arguing that Trump is pro-science. Russian spammers interfering in our elections was bad enough, now we have a British spammer.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Let me make this clear... so LivingLava

You are saying that if I show you a story about researches relaxing protocols so they can fast track vaccine development for this virus, you will change your mind and accept that this is serious.

Right?

For someone who talks so much about science and expertise, you don't seem to understand positivism vs. tentative acceptance of information.

Researchers relaxing protocols isn't positive proof that COVID19 is as deadly as it seems from the news, nor is the maintenance of standard protocols proof that it is a hoax.

The fact that vaccines are not being rushed through testing is just an indication that the virus isn't as big of a threat as it's being made out to be. It could also be that governmental bureaucracy is just bad at breaking its own rules to effectively deal with a crisis situation.

Only time will tell how bad this virus is. It could be that many people can survive infection, but that they transmit the virus around socially, which causes the virus to find its way to older people, babies, and others who are more susceptible to it.

It could also be that the virus mutates and evolves as it circulates. How much do we know about the immune system response to this virus? Do we develop normal antibody protection/immunity that prevents us from getting infected more than once? If not, maybe it is impossible to develop a vaccine at all.

They're going to have to study people who have recovered from the virus, and then we're going to have to trust that the governments of the world are not conspiring to disseminate false information for the sake of propaganda one way or another.

All in all, lay persons aren't going to get any positive proof of anything. And even experts on various aspects of the virus and epidemiology etc. are all just working with their little piece of the puzzle, so most of them can't get real positive proof of anything beyond what they've researched directly on their own.

Science requires tentative trust of all the various data and research findings that are disseminated, but tentative proof is not positive proof. Positive proof is an almost unattainable standard. Yes, you get positive proof all the time when you observe mundane occurrences happening directly, but with less immediate conclusions, there is a lot of room for misinterpretation and faulty analysis.

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@maxdancona,

I see your little supporters have come running to your defence. Real scientists, as opposed to those paid by Monsanto, have said there's not been enough time to fully investigate the long term effect of eating GM foods.

It was similar to when Ecstasy came out in the late 80s, nobody knew what the long term effects of that were either because, unlike heroin and cocaine, it hadn't been round long enough for them to know.

If you'd been around in the 50s and 60s you'd be quoting scientific advice paid for by the tobacco industry that smoking isn't at all harmful.

If nothing else look at your supporters, Oralloy claimed to have had an IQ of 170 but after eating GM foods he's now only as smart as an Oralloy.

That's all the proof you need.

We don't want your GM ****, the Chinese don't want it so you can just eat it yourselves.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

"The fact that normal drug testing protocols aren't being modified...."

Or maybe it suggests that those protocols have the steps they have for a reason.

I'm sure there are a lot of different reasons for drug development protocols, some of them clinical and others political-economic.

If a pandemic was enough of a threat, however, I would expect drug protocols to be modified in light of the benefits outweighing the risks of inaction.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Izzy, this is a thread about Coronavirus. I know you are still butt-hurt about Doctor Who, but come on? Following me around from thread to thread is pathetic. You seemed to back off for a little while, now you are doing the creepy stalker thing again.

If you have something to say about coronavirus, do so. If not...

Bye Felizzy.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

The question I asked was...

what evidence would change your mind so you would accept that coronavirus is a big a threat as the scientific community says it is?

You seemed to answer the question... then you took it back. Is your mind closed about this? Or, is there some piece of evidence that would convince you to accept the science?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

You can't respond to the point I'm making, which is that like Trump you pick and choose the science you believe.

That's why you're trying to change the subject.

There's other threads on the coronavirus, this one is all about you saying how clever you are, then proving the opposite.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The question I asked was...

what evidence would change your mind so you would accept that coronavirus is a big a threat as the scientific community says it is?

I neither accept nor reject the news about coronavirus.

I just go ahead and take all the precautions I can live with, just in case it's true.

Quote:

You seemed to answer the question... then you took it back. Is your mind closed about this? Or, is there some piece of evidence that would convince you to accept the science?

Nothing you could say could convince me to accept anything, because what you call 'the science,' is just your perspective as far as I can tell.

I listen to things you and others have to say, but I only accept them tentatively. I don't have any positive proof that anything you, Farmerman, or anyone else says is absolutely true.

You want people to 'trust the scientific community,' but you fail to understand that there is no positive proof that anything attributed to 'the scientific community' is valid. Positive proof is a very high standard, one which simply can't be satisfied by things like journalistic integrity or peer review. Those things provide hope that information might be more secure against bias and manipulation than if they were absent, but they don't constitute positive proof of anything in and of themselves.

Really there is no positive proof of anything beyond what you can observe directly and/or what you can reason beyond doubt. Everything else you have to accept tentatively at best and just reject tentatively at worst.

Someone can report UFOs landing with aliens, for example, and you can reject it as being unlikely; but if they turn out to be right, then you were wrong for rejecting that information. So to be truthful, you have to accept and reject things tentatively. Otherwise you are closed-minded to the possibility that truth is beyond what you can assess from your own limited perspective in the universe.

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@izzythepush,

I am not responding to your point because you are here to troll. The fact the scientific community is solidly against the position you are taking on GMs... but that is irrelevant you are really just here as part of a one-sided personal feud.

Did you notice I stayed away from your little topic on British Comedy? The topic doesn't interest me, I scrolled through and saw there was nothing really interesting. So I didn't post because I don't care. I don't have the need to drag any personal vendetta from thread to thread, I post on topics that interest me.

It would be better for all of A2K if you would do the same. You got your feelings hurt on other threads, so now you are coming from thread to thread to have this silly temper tantrum. It isn't good for the forum.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Bollocks. You have nothing.

It's not a personal vendetta when I point out you're talking out of your arse.

We won't know the long term effects from eating GM foods for another twenty years at least.

I have a friend who took a similar position to you until I talked some sense into him. Look at motivation, this isn't some altruistic endeavour to feed the world, it's profit driven. Profit driven to the point that they trademark seeds, poor farmers are forced to buy seeds which can't seed themselves meaning they're caught in a cycle where they have to keep buying seeds just to feed themselves.

We're talking third world subsistence level where they can barely manage as it is.

The whole thing sticks, and if you weren't so supine towards big business you'd see that

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Just for you, I started a new thread on the topic of GM.

https://able2know.org/topic/546539-1 I invite you to participate. If you can act like a responsible adult, I will be happy to discuss the topic with you.

If you are just here to let people know that I am a pompous arse, you have already followed me around to countless other threads to tell them.

I kind of suspect you actually agree with me on the topic of this thread. You haven't stated your views yet. Do you accept the science on coronavirus (whichis the topic of this thread)?

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