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Debate over a new angle of mainstream QM

 
 
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 01:01 pm
Formatting is awful here, go here: http://www.scienceforums.com/topic/36429-could-qm-be-seen-from-this-angle-a-conversation-with-an-angry-person/

Why are only unobserved particles allowed to partake in quantum weirdness events?

####|| (deathtopenguin5) You are using "unobserved particle" in a weird way. All particles are unobserved, we can measure certain properties of a system/particle (i.e.wavefunction) by performing a measurement.

####I would say all particles are observed. Because saying "particle" means physicality is involved.

########|| "physicality"? I guess you mean something like macroscopic, or classical?

########Hmm, I could use "classical", but I think that would imply duality is at all times. I like "physicality" because something physical isn't going to tunnel.

####My whole theory is banked on three phases to particle. Unobserved quantum wave (quantum information / virtual) || Duality (both wave and particle) || Spacetime Object (something too large to be influenced by the quantum field)

########|| It seems like "Spacetime object" should be called macroscopic object, or "in the classical limit". Calling it Spacetime object is unnecessarily confusing and the wrong wording. I don't see a reason why duality is mentioned here, there are only quantum waves.

########"Spacetime object" is used because there is a quantum/classical boundary. The upper size isn't going to be influenced by the quantum field ..only spacetime.

########|| I don't see a reason why duality is mentioned here, there are only quantum waves.

########It's a mode a particle can be in. No, a particle in duality is both real and unreal ..physicality and quantum waves.

####|| But this does not change what the particle is e.g. it does not convert the particle into another state in QM. Our measurement affects the particle in some way due to literally interacting with it to get the measured value. But in the standard interpretation the measurement also collapses the wavefunction to a particular eigenstate that corresponds to the value we measured. This eigenstate is free to continue to evolve as normal and will presumably become some superposition of states quite quickly unless prevented in the experiment setup.

####I do say "physical state" a lot. If it makes it less confusing I'll drop the "state". Right the state doesn't change but the physicality of it can. The act of measurement isn't changing the physicality of a particle in flight. It's spacetime declaring the wave should be part of our reality and making it physical.


Doesn't it seem odd that if spacetime was involved (observed) they would NOT be permitted to entangle, tunnel, or go into superposition?

####|| Nope. You are using "observed" wrong and equating it with space-time somehow. This is one instance of where the sentence is rendered incomprehensible.

####"observed" goes hand-in-hand with "decohere" if that helps.
####My push is to make spacetime and the quantum field two separate entities. I know they are separate because quantum weirdness events can't occur if spacetime is involved. Spacetime gets involved when it's necessary to uphold our reality. If something is going to be observed ..it has to be real/physical for our reality to accept it. Only waves in the quantum field are allowed to do quantum weirdness events.

########|| They already are. Space-time is simply a metric to define co-ordinates and measure distances. Quantum Fields are a mathematical tool for describing particles and interactions as oscillations in a field.
########|| More speculation with pop-sci words. You need to describe this as maths because it makes no sense without it.

########You don't like the idea of consciousness based observation being killed off? The fabric of spacetime is literally our reality. It gives us time (a frame rate) and we know it can scale our reality.

########Spacetime scales when it bends. Reality is scaling. We already know about time dilation ..but a meter stick in one time scale (region of space) will shrink or expand in another time region. It will still be a meter no matter how much it scales, because, for that region ..that is the reality of what a meter length is. This is why the speed of light does not change.

########We know spacetime is everywhere but not enacted everywhere because it's possible for quantum waves to go unobserved.

############|| I didn't mention consciousness based observation, no-one did. The idea that consciousness is important is an incorrect understanding of QM. The rest of this comment is utterly incorrect about relativity in basically every way. The most importantly incorrect thing is that there are no "regions" as you describe them, only reference frames.

############I'm providing a death to consciousness, I thought maybe you would appreciate it. Regions are Reference Frames, why is that difficult to stomach?

################|| Because there is no evidence for this... That's a pretty good reason.

################what? Time dilation happens.

####################|| Which is not evidence for "regions" of time dilation, it's described by reference frames i.e. objects moving relative to each other, or in a strong gravitational field.

####################we already established Regions are Reference Frames

####|| Quantum Mechanics "weirdness" is what you call superposition/entanglement/etc I assume? This is always occurring, it's just that we can only measure a single value at a time.

####Yes. umm, no. You aren't going to decohere a particle and then watch it tunnel.

Well, let's look at it from the other side ..observed particles don't display quantum weirdness.

Observing a particle after it has hit the final panel isn't an observed particle to nature. The particle has to be allowed to continue on past a detector to be influenced by "observation" in its flight.

####|| Eh? Particles have to be "free" to be observed? I don't know what's happening here.

####There is no rule saying a particle has to be in a duality at all times. Each flight of a particle from point A to B can be different ..physically. All that matters is what a particle was during its flight. The final wave collapse of a final panel is not going to change what the particle was during it's flight. The key is attempt to measure the particle in a way that allows the particle to continue moving after the detector does a test. No **** the particle is free ..doesn't change what it was during the flight. The quantum field doesn't age waves. If a wave is going to make it all the way to a final panel without being tested, it isn't going to be in a duality during it's flight. Spacetime didn't get involved and provide a physical state. If decoherence is going to occur, the particle is going to be in a duality during its flight from point A to B.

Saying "observation" is the same thing as saying "spacetime got involved"

When speaking about "Duality", QFT seems pertinent because it describes spacetime and the quantum field influencing a particle (no quantum weirdness except for wobble ..and the quantum Zeno effect, the quantum field is still making it ageless. )

####|| QFT absolutely allows for "weirdness", coherence + entanglement, tunnelling, are definitely possible in QFT. I don't know why Zeno effect is mentioned in this sentence, maybe because you are talking about 'agelessness' later? Anyway, QM predicts the Zeno effect and it is measured so that's not necessary to explain another way. The statement "quantum field is making it ageless" is another one that makes no sense. Quantum fields may evolve in time, or may not, it depends on whether the wavefunction depends on time, which depends on the experiment's setup.

####Ermm, okay, I'll stop bringing up QFT. The quantum field doesn't have time from spacetime. It's a separate thing. We know this from the delayed choice quantum eraser. The Zeno effect is do to the quantum field not having time.

####Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser: Shows us the entire path of the particle is known before it starts moving. Entangled particles hold the same physicality while in flight. When the first particle hits it's final panel in a shortened path, it knows if its entangled brother will ever be physical or not in flight. Aka, it knows if spacetime got involved.

########|| Again, entirely incorrect. This experiment simply proves that entanglement can occur in small amounts e.g. The particles being used are not in a completely coherent or decoherent state.

########I suggest you consider what I said once more. I studied this experiment ad nauseam. You already admitted the quantum field is separate from spacetime ..why would the quantum field suddenly have time from spacetime? The quantum field operates on quantum fluctuations ..it doesn't need anything from spacetime to function. The quantum field represents infinity. It was here before spacetime. It's what spacetime was born into.

############|| It needs co-ordinates and distances/intervals of time so that the field can be defined mathematically. Do you mean that particle wavefunctions don't evolve with time, because they absolutely do. Time dependence of the Schrodinger equation/Hamiltonian is a fundamental area to study a system.

############Wave functions can evolve but what they represent is not aging. If they have some type of time it isn't from spacetime.

################|| Evidence? Maths?

################Look at the delayed choice quantum eraser. How am I to come up with math for something that isn't going to give a different result? I'm trying to tell people they are looking at it wrong ..that's all I can do.

Unobserved Matter waves do not decay ..they do not age ..they do not have spacetime.


Decoherence doesn't require a human knowing about it. Spacetime represents our reality and converts virtual quantum information (waves) to physical/real objects.

Observation/Measurement is dead ..it's spacetimes' responsibility.

An unobserved matter wave can have mass and still tunnel ..that means it can hold mass as a variable. It makes sense for Dark Matter to be unobservable matter waves.
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