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Jewish and Muslims

 
 
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 02:24 am
Hi everybody, I don't often write in this forum, but I have this inquiry that

I hope find my answer here; aren't Jewish and Arab Muslims cousins?!.

Shouldn't Christians, Jews, and Muslims have the same God, have books,

have prophets?, so why the fight and killing?

I know it's an old question, but I need convincing answer if there is one. I

also know that Muslims and Christians live together peacfully in some

countries.

I hope that I didn't do a mistake askin this question.

Thank you guys
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,637 • Replies: 19
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 09:45 am
I can't believe that someone with the coolest avatar on the board would resort to starting two threads with the same post. There is a word for that: http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/spam.gif
0 Replies
 
jenniejen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 08:36 pm
Re: Jewish and Muslims
navigator wrote:
Hi everybody, I don't often write in this forum, but I have this inquiry that

I hope find my answer here; aren't Jewish and Arab Muslims cousins?!.

Shouldn't Christians, Jews, and Muslims have the same God, have books,

have prophets?, so why the fight and killing?

I know it's an old question, but I need convincing answer if there is one. I

also know that Muslims and Christians live together peacfully in some

countries.

I hope that I didn't do a mistake askin this question.

Thank you guys


Muslims belive in a lot of the same things Christens belive in . They think Jesus is a profit though.Muslims follow a lot of the things in the old testiment.
0 Replies
 
raheel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 12:28 pm
jews then christians then muslims, they follow on from each other but have something extra

christians- new testament (as well as old testament)

muslims- Jesus is prophet not son of God
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jun, 2005 01:20 am
Re: Jewish and Muslims
jenniejen wrote:


Muslims belive in a lot of the same things Christens belive in . They think Jesus is a profit though.Muslims follow a lot of the things in the old testiment.



yeah right !
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:24 am
I don't think I've ever spoken to a person of the Jewish faith about their beliefs (there just aren't too many of them here in Saudi Arabia), but I doubt if they would agree that Christians worship the same God as they do (even though Christians believe they do).

Likewise, as a Christian I do not believe Muslims worship the same God as I do, even though Muslims believe it.
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:25 am
I don't think I've ever spoken to a person of the Jewish faith about their beliefs (there just aren't too many of them here in Saudi Arabia), but I doubt if they would agree that Christians worship the same God as they do (even though Christians believe they do).

Likewise, as a Christian I do not believe Muslims worship the same God as I do, even though Muslims believe it.
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:25 am
I don't think I've ever spoken to a person of the Jewish faith about their beliefs (there just aren't too many of them here in Saudi Arabia), but I doubt if they would agree that Christians worship the same God as they do (even though Christians believe they do).

Likewise, as a Christian I do not believe Muslims worship the same God as I do, even though Muslims believe it.
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:27 am
Sorry about the multiple postings. The internet service here is not all that reliable and messes up from time to time.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:46 am
Jim
The three faiths in reality worship the same God. The God who gave the law to Moses. The three religions are branches of the same tree.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jul, 2005 08:20 am
I believe that Jim is essentially correct.
There is a slight divergence which makes Christianity incompatible with Judaism.
Judaism categorically rejects the idea that Jesus could possibly be divine, which makes the whole Christian edifice smack of idolatry. This makes even entering churches problematical for Orthodox Jews.
Whereas, Islam claims a single G-d, thereby, ironically enough, making our Muslim brothers more kosher than Christianity.
Nonetheless, Judaism does have two slight problems with Islam. One is, that according to our Torah, Mohhamad is flat out lying about his interpretation of things (ie: he's got G-d commanding Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael, instead of Isaac); and secondly, these people want to kill me!
Therefore, I'll take the Christian theological heresy today over the Arab / Islamic fascist Death Cultists.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 04:46 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
(ie: he's got G-d commanding Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael, instead of Isaac);


whats the true story and whats the false claim

could you please clarify.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 05:29 am
Bereshis (Genesis) 22: 1-19 -
Quote:
1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.
2 Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"
"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.
"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram [a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.


This is from the Torah (bad translation, but basically accurate), which was given about 3,300 years ago.
About 1,500 years ago, the Koran changes this story so that it is Ishmael, Abraham's son by his concubine, "the father of the Arabs," that is offered by Abraham as a sacrifice.

No matter what a person feels about the divine origins of a text, it becomes problematical when they decide to change it 1,500 years later saying, "What G-d really meant to say was this..."
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 05:42 am
Moishe3rd wrote:


19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

This is from the Torah (bad translation, but basically accurate), which was given about 3,300 years ago.



ok tyvm.

but now i have more questions.

1 - how long after the incident was this written. i mean the torah as you said was written 3300 years ago - describing this incident that occured a further how many years ago ?

2 - sara/sarah/sarai (which is the actual name and which one was it changed to.. i understand abraham is also actually ibrahim, but he was asked to change the name by the maker once issac was born) - is she his concubine or sarah's maid?

3 - as i know, beersheeba is in today's isreal, which is the southern part of canaan (or is judea the southern part). but didnt the jews come to canaan after moses brought them from egypt across the red sea? wasnt abraham's tribe from ur in whats today iraq? how come beersheba? what is it that i dont know?

i have more questions.... the person who used to tell me all this (from Cali, usa) no longer comes on line and so loads of questions have remained unanswered.

ty.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 07:30 am
brahmin wrote:
Moishe3rd wrote:


19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

This is from the Torah (bad translation, but basically accurate), which was given about 3,300 years ago.



ok tyvm.

but now i have more questions.

1 - how long after the incident was this written. i mean the torah as you said was written 3300 years ago - describing this incident that occured a further how many years ago?

ty.

Well, I believe that the oldest written documents are the Dead Sea Scrolls, which date from about 250 BCE to 50 CE. There may be older documents.
There is written evidence that the written Torah was in use at the time of the 1st Temple, which existed from about 800 to 400 CE.
The Akeida (Sacrifice of Isaac) would have happened about 1700 BCE.
Quote:
2 - sara/sarah/sarai (which is the actual name and which one was it changed to.. i understand abraham is also actually ibrahim, but he was asked to change the name by the maker once issac was born) - is she his concubine or sarah's maid?

Sarai was changed to Sarah. It is the addition of the letter "hey" that was significant. Avram's name was changed to Avraham. Ibrahim is merely the Arabic for Avraham, just as the English is Abraham.
Hagar was Sarah's maid. As Sarah was having trouble conceiving, she gave Hagar to Avraham to be his concubine. Hagar conceived Ishmael. Then, Sarah conceived Isaac.
Quote:
3 - as i know, beersheeba is in today's isreal, which is the southern part of canaan (or is judea the southern part). but didnt the jews come to canaan after moses brought them from egypt across the red sea? wasnt abraham's tribe from ur in whats today iraq? how come beersheba? what is it that i dont know?

Well, you'd have to actually read Bereishis (Genesis) in the Torah to get the full picture, but a brief sketch is:
Avraham born in Ur (Sumria) about 1800 BC.
His family migrates to Haran, the location of which is disputed - Northern Israel; Syria; Northern Iraq.
He is told by G-d to move to Canaan which G-d says he is going to give to him and his descendants.
At one point, he settles in Beersheba. Avraham actually lives in several places in what becomes the Land of Israel. At one point he buys Hevron for a burying place.
Isaac, Avraham's son, also moves around. Both of them spend time in Egypt.
Yaakov, Isaac's son also moves around, spending time with his uncle Lavan in Haran and then moving back to Canaan.
His son, Joseph, is sold by his brothers down to Egypt. Joseph becomes Viceroy of Egypt; Yaakov and all of Joseph's 11 other brothers move to Egypt.
Egyptians enslave the descendants of Avraham; Isaac; and Yaakov (whose name was changed to Israel) and so the Children of Israel are freed from bondage in Egypt; given the Torah; and are finally led back to Canaan, which they conquer and settle.
Time from Avraham to Moses and Israel, about 400 years...
Quote:
i have more questions.... the person who used to tell me all this (from Cali, usa) no longer comes on line and so loads of questions have remained unanswered.

I love answering questions about Judaism, but the above timeline is woefully incomplete and uniformative. It would be necessary to go into the text in depth in order to get a full picture of just what the heck was happening...
Smile
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 07:54 am
ok tyvm.

it may not be the most detailed discussion but i also enjoyed it.

a few more questions, if your patience holds -


- issac was actually Itzhak in hebrew, isnt it? and Yaakov is english-ified to Jacob?

- who then are the original people of canaan? this is a very important question. i mean when they (jews) were led back to canaan from egypt - who, if any at all, was occupying the land of canaan? nobody? or the canaanites? are palestineans the descendants of canaanites? or descendants of someone else?


- in the approx 400 year time between abraham's son itzhak being born and moses getting the torah.... the hebrew's didnt have a religion isnt it? they were simply known as hebrews and judaism was born with moses's getting the torah (well the first 5 chapters of it). or am i wrong and jews/judaism is considered to have started from the time sarai gave birth.


- i understand that abraham was the leader of the hebrew tribe. are there two kinds of jews - those who are the blood descendants of itzhak AND those who are the descendants of the rest of the tribe abraham headed? or are the descendants of the rest of the tribe not considered jews (we assume here an ideal case that jews never married a non jew and therefore negate the third kind - the people who are of mixed lineage)


phew.

will be a great help if you will answer those.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 09:15 am
brahmin wrote:
ok tyvm.

it may not be the most detailed discussion but i also enjoyed it.

a few more questions, if your patience holds -


- issac was actually Itzhak in hebrew, isnt it? and Yaakov is english-ified to Jacob?

phew.

will be a great help if you will answer those.

Okay Smile
The pronunciation from the Hebrew would go:
Avraham; Yitzach; Yaakov.
But in the Torah it would include Avinu which means Father.
So, it's Avraham Avinu; Yitzach Avinu; Yaakov Avinu.
Then you've got Yaakov's name changing to Yisroel (Israel).
Yaakov's son that went down to Egypt - Yosef HaTzaddik (Joseph, the Righteous One).
Yishmael is Avraham's son by Hagar.
Esav is Yaakov's twin brother from Yitzach.
Quote:
- who then are the original people of canaan? this is a very important question. i mean when they (jews) were led back to canaan from egypt - who, if any at all, was occupying the land of canaan? nobody? or the canaanites? are palestineans the descendants of canaanites? or descendants of someone else?

According the the Torah and somewhat corroborated by other histories (Babylonian; Egyptian; Phoenecian; and Greek), the original inhabitants of Canaan were separate tribal peoples similiar in all ways to other regions of the world, where individual tribes had their own customs and gods. Some of the names were Amorites; Jebusites; Hittites; Girgashites; Hevites; Perrizites; Amalekites; Moabites... and more.
Some of these tribes, Amalek, Moab, and Amor were all considered to be related to the Israelites.
The Phillistines showed up later on the scene, after Israel had already started to conquer Canaan. They were a warrior peoples with iron weapons and chariots that came from the north (Lebanon? Iraq?) They occupied the coastal regions and largely drove the Israelites back into what is the central hill country and Jordan river valley.
The Arabs currently called Palestinians are descended from everyone over the polyglot 3,000 years we are discussing.
Most of the present day Arabs called Palestinians are descended from Arabs that moved into that area of the Ottoman Empire and later the Palestinian mandate because Jews started moving into the area in the late 1800's and provided work and a viable economy.
The people that lived their for the last 3,000 years or so are descended from everybody that lived there, which includes the Canannites; the Israelites; the Jews; the Assyrians; the Babylonians; the Greeks; the Romans; the Persians; the Byzantine Romans; the Arab Muslims; and the European Crusaders.
From the time the Romans obliterated Israel up until the 20th century, the whole region was considered a desert wasteland where nothing grew and no economy flourished.
Quote:
- in the approx 400 year time between abraham's son itzhak being born and moses getting the torah.... the hebrew's didnt have a religion isnt it? they were simply known as hebrews and judaism was born with moses's getting the torah (well the first 5 chapters of it). or am i wrong and jews/judaism is considered to have started from the time sarai gave birth.

It is given over in the Torah that Avraham Avinu was the first man to understand that G-d was One; that there was a supreme Creator that was not a material entity.
He made converts to this religion, but it didn't really take. He turned passed on this religion to his son, Yitzach Avinu who in turn passed it on to Yaakov Avinu who passed it on to his sons - the twelve tribes of Israel.
Judaism is considered to have begun when Avraham realized that G-d was G-d.
Quote:
- i understand that abraham was the leader of the hebrew tribe. are there two kinds of jews - those who are the blood descendants of itzhak AND those who are the descendants of the rest of the tribe abraham headed? or are the descendants of the rest of the tribe not considered jews (we assume here an ideal case that jews never married a non jew and therefore negate the third kind - the people who are of mixed lineage)

According to the Torah:
Avraham had Yismael from Hagar.
Then he had Yitzach from Sarah.
G-d told Avraham that Yitzach from Sarah, his wife, would inherit and that Yishmael would not. But it was promised that Yishmael would also become a great nation.
In turn Yitzach had two sons, Esav and Yaakov.
Esav sold his birthright to Yaakov and Yaakov inherited the mantle of Judaism. Esav also became the father of nations and, according to the Torah, Rome comes from Esav.
Then Yaakov had twelve sons who became the twelve tribes of Israel.

The descendants of Yismael and Esav are not considered Jews.
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 09:37 am
tyvm again for clarifying. i saved the paeg.

but i am taking the liberty to hammer out further ramifications . Smile


- yaakov = jacob ?

- 2 tribes i am sure arnt related to israelis - hitties and mittanis. and one thing is clear then - the israelis came to canaan b4 the philistines.


- if judaism is considered to have started from the time abraham realised that god was one - then what does moses's getting the torah represent the start of ?


- i knew the last bit - but what i asked was - what happened to the other people of abraham's tribe. what are their descandents called today ?


- and the new queiry Smile is .....if esav fathered the romans - then romans become a semitic people - ie. of a semitic language (abjad and not syllable based, going right to left, and not very different from other semitic languages like hebrew, arabic and aramaic). but roman islt like that. also romans had their pantheon. how come the descendants of someone comming from a semetic family of language, and believing in monotheism, had neither of these two traits?
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 10:15 am
brahmin wrote:
tyvm again for clarifying. i saved the paeg.

but i am taking the liberty to hammer out further ramifications . Smile

- yaakov = jacob ?

Yes.
Quote:
- 2 tribes i am sure arnt related to israelis - hitties and mittanis. and one thing is clear then - the israelis came to canaan b4 the philistines.

Yes (except Israelis are today's citizens of the State of Israel. The Israelites were the children of Yaakov, later the nation of Israel.)
Quote:
- if judaism is considered to have started from the time abraham realised that god was one - then what does moses's getting the torah represent the start of ?

Okay, now it's theology.
According to the Torah, the Torah existed before the Creation of the World.
According to the Torah, Avrham; Yitzach and Yaakov all studied Torah before the Torah was given.
The purpose of giving over the Torah at Mt. Sinai was to bind all of the Children of Israel into a Convenant with G-d for all time.
It was the bris (circumsion); the baptizing and communion (Christian); the trial by fire for a whole people, who from that time, were irrevocably bound to G-d.
Quote:
- i knew the last bit - but what i asked was - what happened to the other people of abraham's tribe. what are their descandents called today ?

Yishmael's descendants would be the Arabs.
Esav's descendants would be the Amalekites and the Romans, both of which are spread about the world.
And, oops, I forgot. After Sarah died, Avraham remarries Keturah (who is Hagar). They have more children and he sends them off to the East where they also become the fathers of nations (I wrote about this on another thread, but very briefly, in my opinion, they become the father of the Aryans who become the fathers of the Hindus)
Quote:
- and the new queiry Smile is .....if esav fathered the romans - then romans become a semitic people - ie. of a semitic language (abjad and not syllable based, going right to left, and not very different from other semitic languages like hebrew, arabic and aramaic). but roman islt like that. also romans had their pantheon. how come the descendants of someone comming from a semetic family of language, and believing in monotheism, had neither of these two traits?

Again, we're delving into theology. So, rather than trying to explain in a convoluted way, I will simply give you over one explanation, taken from
online in a Jewish article called Rome: The Divider
Quote:
(Breishit 36, 40-43) "Now these are the names of the chiefs of Esav,.the chief of Magdiel and the chief of Iram; these are the chiefs of Edom by their settlements,.he is Esav, father of Edom".

The tenth and last chief (or his place) is called Magdiel and Rashi tells us that it is Rome. The Roman Empire was the height of Esav's power. The Gur Aryeh explains that Rome was given the name Magdiel because of the great heights Esav was raised to during the reign of Rome. He adds that the name Rome in Hebrew itself means the heights from the word "hitromemut". Those heights gave Esav the power to oppose us during this exile of Rome in an especially cruel and vicious way. The Gur Aryeh tells us, in the name of the Midrash, that Aluf Iram, the one that follows Magdiel, is also Rome. One could wonder why the Torah gave Rome two names. Magdiel and Iram. The Maharal does not leave us in the dark, and explains the two names. Magdiel, he says, means a tower, (from the word "migdal") indicating their rise to the heights, toward the heavens, and Iram means a city (from the word "iyr"), their roots on earth. They stretched from the earth to the heavens.

I am sure this generates new questions, but please understand that when you are asking for specific dates, times and peoples, I can use data from various sources, but when you ask about the above, the only corroborating source I have is the Torah. No one else, to the best of my knowledge, believes that Rome descended from Esav...
0 Replies
 
brahmin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Jul, 2005 10:31 pm
Moishe3rd wrote:

brahmin wrote:
- 2 tribes i am sure arnt related to israelis - hitties and mittanis. and one thing is clear then - the israelis came to canaan b4 the philistines.


the reason i said with confidence that the mittanis and the hitties arnt related to israelis/israelites or any other semitic people is that they (mittanis and hitties) arnt from the semitic anguage family at all but from the aryan language family and their language is the syllable based inflective language not the abjad based semitic type.

"Northern Syria there is a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitannis, two groups of people, and in the course of this treaty they call to witness the gods of Hittites - Mitra, Varuna, Indra, Nasatya."

The last 4, are gods mentioned in the Rig Veda.

Moishe3rd wrote:

And, oops, I forgot. After Sarah died, Avraham remarries Keturah (who is Hagar). They have more children and he sends them off to the East where they also become the fathers of nations (I wrote about this on another thread, but very briefly, in my opinion, they become the father of the Aryans who become the fathers of the Hindus)


lmao@ "who became the father of the aryans... "

so what with hitties and mittanis being aryans(speakers of the aryan family of languages) already !!

it just so happenes that the rig veda is 5000+ years old. also that hinduism dont have a founder nor is a "religion" really.

guess i should have asked you only about jews.


for the rome bit, i have to read and look up other articles/papers.

but i still dont know what happened to the descendants of the rest of the members of abraham's tribe - i know all about HIS descendants - but what are THEIR descendants called today ?


thanks very much for all the info and clarification.
0 Replies
 
 

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