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The banlieue

 
 
Diane
 
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 11:27 am
Fbaezer's mention of the banlieue in another thread made me wonder, so I googled 'banlieue' and found this funny little poll by some sort of student seeking answers to a variety of words in French, including "banlieue." He is obviously young, describing people in that condescending way with a proficiency possessed only by the young: "Their response is positive, eager to express opinions and take an odd leave of reality from their routine quotidian life-style."

As I read about the banlieue, I wondered about poverty and discrimination in France. The banlieu seems to contain all the unhappiness and limited opportunities found in most poor nieghborhoods in the US.

http://www.ac.aup.fr/ggilbert/contentpages/Champs.html

Quote:
Banlieu (Suburbs, a.k.a. ghetto) -Skyscraper apartment buildings (including housing developments) -A special way of living, different (in a positive and negative sense) -Less priveledged people -Ghetto life, the somber realties of it -Rackai (thugs) -Rap -Graffiti -NTM (and French Rap in general) -Incomprehension of the banlieu situation -The young in the banlieu are not all delinquents; they experience a different culture and environment. Some people are ignorant in their pre-judging of young adults from the banlieue, thinking they're all trouble, they're wrong -Very isolated from opportunities such as work, good housing options, and safety for children. There are few means to a good or possibly even successful life in the banlieue
-Nicely cultivated cute gardens -Tranquil -Negative
connotations of the banlieue inhabitant -A people culture, love for others in the same struggling situation. -Bad boys


So how bad is it in Parisian suburbs? What are the chronic problems facing France in incorporating immigrants and newly arrived people from the countryside looking for more lucrative work in the City?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 11:38 am
I read some time ago a long article by Jane Kramer about what is probably called a banlieu in the Dijon area.. and some bits and pieces here and there about some Paris suburb areas that might fit the description. But of course I am personally ignorant about "banlieu" and await comments from people who know more.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 11:47 am
Thanks, osso. I remember reading a couple of articles about Paris in the New York Time a few years ago. One described the suburbs as a place Parisians never spoke of, especially with tourists. Like most large, world class cities, living in Paris is only for the rich.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 01:05 pm
- As it's of female gender, banlieue must be writen with final "e".

Banlieue etymology - ban = ban, lieu = place : place of ban. Place where were "bandits".

Now, banlieue have not always a negative connotation : Banlieue cossue, kind of suburbs with estates and nicely trimmed properties.

More often banlieue is synonym for ghetto :banlieue déshéritée.
People living in these suburbs find themselves discriminated, which is usually the case.

Living in center of Paris in a decent appartement means having substantial revenus. But thousands and thousands of low income people live in Paris.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 02:50 pm
Francis, I was going to pm you for help, and here you are! There is so little known about other countries, especially by those of us who haven't traveled much. The US has well-known problems with poverty, for an industrialized country, but I know other counties have their share and I was wondering how those problems are handled and how prevalent discrimination is.

Tourists seldom see outside the known tourist trails. I would like to explore the conditions associated with actually living and working in another country. (And I didn't want to bring seriousness to the delightful thread about living in a foreign country--it is a fantasy thread, not to be confused with hard, cold reality).
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 03:00 pm
OK, I went through and edited so that banlieue is properly spelled. Thanks again, Francis.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 May, 2005 08:09 pm
Apparently it is near impossible for a naif like me to just look at a list of titles of Jane Kramer's many years of Letter from Europe articles in the New Yorker. And who knows, even if I could see the list, maybe the article I remember (somewhat) was one by a few other possible writers. Alas, I got over the routine of actually saving the magazine articles I've liked over the years. This has kept me from not having stacks of paper to the ceiling,
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2005 08:45 am
Quote:
J'écris ce que je vis et vis ce que j'écris, logique
Tout ceci explique sûrement la rudesse de mon lyrics
Je canalise, centralise, réalise une parfaite analyse
je te remercie, pas besoin de psychanalyse
Que voulez-vous que je pisse sinon du hardcore.
Je fais partis du triste décor de la banlieue Nord
Mon style évolue, jamais révolu,
influencé par la rue

NTM - Pour un nouveau massacre

I only know the banlieu from second-hand experience. I saw that controversial and hard-hitting movie, La Haine, and read how another filmmaker, who actually was from the banlieue, critized it for setting an alarmist, stereotyped scene. I saw Yamakasi, which portrayed the same scene with more cheer and optimism (but no less poverty and aversion to the city centre's gentlefolk) and Bye-Bye, where the kids try their (lack of) luck in Marseille.

I read Lila Dit Ca - now there's an amazing perplexing class-of-its-own book - but its in such a uniquely personal voice that it doesnt necessarily represent much wider. (Though the dreary banlieue setting provides the basic background / motivation for the protagonist's flight into fantasy, and the book's suffused with lingo). A. says there's a movie of it out now, I cant imagine, but she says its good.

I also got an NTM CD or two, some hardcore French hip-hop MP3s and apart from the usual MC Solaar / Soon E MC smoother stuff the Les Cool Sessions compilation as well.

But still I cant really think what it must be like. In Holland, it's the neighbourhoods directly around the inner city that traditionally are poor and multicultural. It's a wholly different scene. We're getting it, now, the crisis in outlying, post-war neighbourhoods where the usual trouble is escalated by the social alienation of one towerblock after another (and we always had the Bijlmer in Amsterdam), but still most of our experience with cultures of poverty are about "the people in the old neighbourhoods", as the politicians never stop referring to them. The neighbourhoods that my grandparents and uncles/aunts moved out from in the working-class "white flight" of the 70s-80s.

The diversity of the banlieue, meanwhile, is nicely expressed in this blog item I stumbled upon Googling for NTM lyrics, from a self-described "fille de banlieue", who is from 'out there' but nevertheless does not, as people immediately assume, "inhabit an insalubrious 25 square meter flat where my four brothers and sisters and me share a matress" and did not only "stop listening to NTM non-stop on the car radio of a stolen Mercedes" after high school graduation. Heh: Good bye 4 000
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2005 05:36 pm
Nimh, I've been traveling and couldn't respond sooner to your post.

The blog, of course, is in French. I am horribly primitive in translating and usually make such mistakes as to invert the intended meaning.

Here in the States, there are very poor neighborhoods that have mostly positive characteristics. New York City, Chicago and others have intriguing multicultural neighborhoods that retain ethnic differences while accepting and celebrating those differences. They develop a fond, even protective attitude toward their neighborhood and resent "Yuppie" types coming in to renovate, as that eventually changes the character and boosts the prices so that the old timers have to move out.

I was interested in your reference to "white flight" during the 70's and 80's. Little is written in US papers about ethnic problems in Europe and I have often felt that Europeans are reticent to discuss their own problems with discrimination.

Any thoughts?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2005 11:12 am
Diane wrote:
They develop a fond, even protective attitude toward their neighborhood and resent "Yuppie" types coming in to renovate, as that eventually changes the character and boosts the prices so that the old timers have to move out.

Oh we have those neighbourhoods too: Lombok in Utrecht, de Pijp, I suppose, in Amsterdam (tho its already pretty yuppiefied) ...

Funny, I saw this documentary about Robert Frank, the photographer, and he was interviewed in front of his home (or rather, the vague-looking plot in which his home was hidden somewhere), and this was in the beginning of the movie so you didnt know yet, and he was going on about - well, all the things you'd hear a Dutch person say exactly so about foreigners - "and they come here, and I understand they need a place to live too, but they're just very different, they bring very different ways, and I dont think they're bad people, but I just dont want to see it every day, I dont want them to take over my neighbourhood"... and then he added, "those yuppies!" Razz

Diane wrote:
I was interested in your reference to "white flight" during the 70's and 80's. Little is written in US papers about ethnic problems in Europe and I have often felt that Europeans are reticent to discuss their own problems with discrimination.

Any thoughts?

Lots Razz

But thats perhaps a bit much to go into. I wrote a lot about the whole background in McG's thread about Theo van Gogh's murder, here: Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats. As for my grandparents/family, there's more in this post.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2005 10:50 pm
Thanks for the links, nimh. I'm on page 13 of McGentrix' thread--fascinating reading. Human nature does come out, even in the most liberal societies. I'll keep reading and will respond there if I find anything to say that would have any merit.
0 Replies
 
Radical Edward
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 04:18 pm
Well... I actually live in a "banlieue". So if you want to study me... Laughing
More seriously, and to quote the blog given by nimh, "Quand je dis que je viens de Seine-Saint-Denis, les gens s'imaginent que je devais sans doute habiter un 25 m2 insablubre où mes 4 frères et soeurs et moi partagions des matelas. [...] Comment après, vous voulez dire que non, vous habitiez une super grande maison avec jardin dans une ville très calme sans tuer un mythe?"
For the english speakers: it is possible to live in the "banlieue" in decent conditions, in a big house with a garden in a quiet town... but it breaks a myth! Laughing
The "banlieue" has a (very very very) bad reputation here. However, I've seen places in Paris that were worse than the banlieue... Maybe one day people will stop looking at the banlieue this way... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 01:50 pm
Radical Edward, please forgive me for not responding sooner. I tend not to be a regular on a2k in that i will go a few days without posting or only post on a couple of threads, letting the others get along without me; but since this is a thread that I started, I should have been better about getting back to see if anyone had posted. There, after that lengthy apology, I'm sorry!

Your reply reminds me of something I said earlier about neighborhoods withing or just on the outskirts of cities with a strong, favorable identity to its inhabitants. In other words, it isn't all bad. Sort of like news stories, isn't it? Only the shocking, nasty stuff makes the papers.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts on a2k.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 01:57 pm
Radical Edward wrote:
Comment après, vous voulez dire que non, vous habitiez une super grande maison avec jardin dans une ville très calme sans tuer un mythe?"


Why wouldn't you kill the myth?

One must be iconoclast by the times being...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2005 08:40 am
Trouble in the banlieue...

Youths riot for second night in Paris suburb
2005/10/29 · Reuters

French youths fought with police and set cars ablaze in a Paris suburb in a second night of rioting, which was triggered when two teenagers were electrocuted while fleeing police. Firefighters intervened around 40 times in Clichy-sous-Bois, a suburb of high-rise social housing with many immigrant residents. A police trade union officer called for help from the army: "There's a civil war under way. My colleagues neither have the equipment nor the training for street fighting." Several hundred people took part in a silent march to honour the two teenagers.

'Misleading' ministers blamed over Paris riots
2005/11/01 · The Independent

Minister Sarkozy sought to calm the fury in a Paris suburb which has generated four nights of riots. He spoke to the parents of the two boys who were electrocuted in a sub-station. At first, Sarkozy and Prime Minister de Villepin had said that the boys were sought in connection with a burglary; then, that they were suspected of vandalism. The government later admitted that neither was true. Renewed violence was feared after a tear-gas shell exploded inside a local mosque.

Dozens of cars torched as Paris riots spread
2005/11/02 · Reuters

President Chirac urged calm after a sixth night of unrest in poor suburbs of Paris, which triggered a row between ministers in France's conservative government. Tense order was kept in Clichy-sous-Bois as street fighting broke out in previously quiet areas. Government squabbling broke out when equal opportunities minister Begag criticised interior minister Sarkozy for calling the protesting youths "scum". He also complained that Sarkozy never consulted him.

Fresh violence hits Paris suburbs
2005/11/03 · BBC News

Rioting youths shot at police and torched 177 vehicles during overnight violence in Paris. Gangs besieged a police station, set fire to a car dealership and threw petrol bombs at public buses. At least nine people were injured on a seventh consecutive night of violence. Wednesday night's violence erupted in nine areas across Seine-Saint-Denis, home to largely poor north African communities. Two primary schools, a post office and a shopping centre were damaged.

French Rioting Spreads as Government Seeks an Answer
2005/11/03 · Washington Post

President Chirac met with his cabinet to discuss rioting that spread to 13 immigrant-dominated towns on the outskirts of Paris. In a rapid escalation of the violence, gangs set fire to as many as 228 vehicles on Wednesday night. Riot police fired rubber-coated bullets, stun grenades and tear gas canisters to disperse attackers. The violence was contagious in communities where unemployment is more than twice the average, crime is rampant, social services are minimal and residents are packed into shabby high-rise apartments. "This problem is exploding in the face of the government," said Dominique Moisi.
0 Replies
 
Radical Edward
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2005 11:45 am
OK. Let's be clear (for once).
Paris Suburb is NOT in complete chaos of rage and fire!
Here, in France, I'm sure taht there are people, who watch too much television thinking it reflects the real life, and think that the entire suburb is under attack by young meanies... Rolling Eyes
The medias, even here, claimed everywhere that the entire "banlieue" was in fire, ravaged by youngsters. Well, if it is the case, then I'm surely blind, because I saw no flames... Laughing
Well, except in local places (where our dear medias went right away... :wink: ) there is no fire, no danger, no agressions, no burnig cars, etc...
Example: I live not that far away from a shop who "was burnt", but in fact, the most probable theory is that it was the owner of the shop who set fire, because he wanted a new one and the municipality never gave it to him... Apparently, it is the same for a lot of cars: where cars were actually burnt, people set fire to their own cars, for the insurrance...
Don't worry, we'll survive to this major, mediatised (and political) crisis! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2005 12:51 pm
I hope we will survive some "minister of interior" that lits this "social fire" and will not elect him to a higher place..
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2005 01:10 pm
From today's 'Parisien'

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9207/clipboard12mm.jpg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Nov, 2005 01:44 pm
5 millions people live in the so-called ZUS (zones urbaines sensibles) in France, and there are 751 of them.
(Source: L'OBSERVATOIRE NATIONAL DES ZUS )

I don't know the figures for Germany or the UK (which are the countries where I know a bit about similar urban zones, but I would think the figures (those quoted above as well as others like income, percentage of foreign born, education etc) are closely similar there.
(And in Birmingham the reason[s] for the latest riots there were nearly exactly the same as in Clichy.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Nov, 2005 03:09 am
Quote:
Failure to quell rioting creates a crisis for France

By Hugh Schofield in Aulnay-sous-Bois
Published: 04 November 2005

A badly rattled French Government was yesterday fighting to contain a wave of suburban violence that has pitted police against rioters in run-down neighbourhoods of northern and eastern Paris for seven nights in a row.

More than 315 cars were burned overnight on Wednesday in street battles that have extended well beyond the original flashpoint of Clichy-sous-Bois - where two adolescents were accidentally electrocuted to death a week ago - to several other parts of the capital's "banlieues" with high immigrant populations.

Police said four live bullets were fired at them at La Courneuve, though none hit its mark. In the town of Antony two firebombs were hurled at a police station, and elsewhere another unmanned police station was ransacked by youths.

In Aulnay-sous-Bois - a town not far from Charles de Gaulle airport that combines some of the worst suburban squalor with areas of bourgeois gentility - a Renault dealership lay in black cinders after being torched by rioters with the loss of most of its stock of vehicles.

Passers-by and patrolling policemen were taking photographs with their mobile telephones, while further down the street - near a notorious estate known as the "City of the 3,000" - more burned-out cars littered the pavement.

"It's hard to just sit here and watch the rich people driving past in their swanky vehicles. They have everything and we have absolutely nothing," said Ziad, 20, the ringleader of a group of young men who took art in the riots.

"Sarkozy says we are like dogs. Well - we'll show him. Ever since he came to the government, life has been crap," said Abdul.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the hardline interior minister in the government of Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, has become the bogeyman of the young rioters - who sense that they are to a winning ticket when they criticise his "provocative" use of language.

The minister has drawn widespread condemnation from the left - and distinct unease within the cabinet - for his outspoken attacks on the racaille - or scum - that he blames for introducing a culture of drugs and petty crime in the worst-affected areas of the banlieues. After an earlier incident during the summer he said crime-ridden areas should be "cleaned with a powerhose".

Last night he was back on the attack, saying that "what matters is facts not words" and claiming the violence of the last week was all "perfectly organised". "What we have been witnessing is not in the least spontaneous, and we are trying to identify the organisers ... When you have live bullets fired at the forces of law and order ... the person who does it is purely and simply a yob," he said.

M. De Villepin - who is M. Sarkozy's undeclared rival in the 2007 presidential election battle - initially had some satisfaction at his interior minister's discomfiture. But now he too is under growing criticism for letting the situation drift and failing to offer more in the way of a solution than another vague "action plan" for later this month.

"It is time to start to manage seriously what has become a serious crisis," said Le Monde newspaper.

Ministers are hoping that a mix of factors - worsening weather, the return to classes after half term and the end of Ramadan - will combine soon to bring the wave of copy-cat riots to a halt, but there is deep pessimism about the future. The banlieues have been the scene of regular outbreaks of riots for more than 15 years now - and though each peters out eventually, the next round is always worse.

A badly rattled French Government was yesterday fighting to contain a wave of suburban violence that has pitted police against rioters in run-down neighbourhoods of northern and eastern Paris for seven nights in a row.

More than 315 cars were burned overnight on Wednesday in street battles that have extended well beyond the original flashpoint of Clichy-sous-Bois - where two adolescents were accidentally electrocuted to death a week ago - to several other parts of the capital's "banlieues" with high immigrant populations.

Police said four live bullets were fired at them at La Courneuve, though none hit its mark. In the town of Antony two firebombs were hurled at a police station, and elsewhere another unmanned police station was ransacked by youths.

In Aulnay-sous-Bois - a town not far from Charles de Gaulle airport that combines some of the worst suburban squalor with areas of bourgeois gentility - a Renault dealership lay in black cinders after being torched by rioters with the loss of most of its stock of vehicles.

Passers-by and patrolling policemen were taking photographs with their mobile telephones, while further down the street - near a notorious estate known as the "City of the 3,000" - more burned-out cars littered the pavement.

"It's hard to just sit here and watch the rich people driving past in their swanky vehicles. They have everything and we have absolutely nothing," said Ziad, 20, the ringleader of a group of young men who took art in the riots.

"Sarkozy says we are like dogs. Well - we'll show him. Ever since he came to the government, life has been crap," said Abdul.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the hardline interior minister in the government of Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, has become the bogeyman of the young rioters - who sense that they are to a winning ticket when they criticise his "provocative" use of language.
The minister has drawn widespread condemnation from the left - and distinct unease within the cabinet - for his outspoken attacks on the racaille - or scum - that he blames for introducing a culture of drugs and petty crime in the worst-affected areas of the banlieues. After an earlier incident during the summer he said crime-ridden areas should be "cleaned with a powerhose".

Last night he was back on the attack, saying that "what matters is facts not words" and claiming the violence of the last week was all "perfectly organised". "What we have been witnessing is not in the least spontaneous, and we are trying to identify the organisers ... When you have live bullets fired at the forces of law and order ... the person who does it is purely and simply a yob," he said.

M. De Villepin - who is M. Sarkozy's undeclared rival in the 2007 presidential election battle - initially had some satisfaction at his interior minister's discomfiture. But now he too is under growing criticism for letting the situation drift and failing to offer more in the way of a solution than another vague "action plan" for later this month.

"It is time to start to manage seriously what has become a serious crisis," said Le Monde newspaper.

Ministers are hoping that a mix of factors - worsening weather, the return to classes after half term and the end of Ramadan - will combine soon to bring the wave of copy-cat riots to a halt, but there is deep pessimism about the future. The banlieues have been the scene of regular outbreaks of riots for more than 15 years now - and though each peters out eventually, the next round is always worse.
Source
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