Can you be a Christian and not support Trump?

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If you read the Bible it is very clear that God favors nationalism, grants favors to wealthy people and hates mercy.

The main message of Christ was self-reliance. People should care for their own needs. If you offer compassion or mercy to people who are desperate and in you create a welfare state where people will depend on something other than themselves.

The story of Jesus stoning a woman caught in sin was the highlight of his life. When he said if this woman has any sin, throw the first stone... he was clearly saying that once someone breaks a law, they lose God's love or any right of compassion. Trump is doing, you put someone's kids in jail it sends a message that God is not a God of compassion.

And when he said "Blessed are the Fair of Skin"... the message was clear. God gave the promised land in North America to White Americans and gave them the command to "keep out the stranger". Jesus was clearly a nationalist.

Trump is acting like Jesus. Why are people criticizing him?

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[+3] - neptuneblue - 07/31/2019[quote="livinglava"]Anyway, the point is that these could be interesting, fruitful discussions if everyone wasn't so busy posturing and spinning words without really explaining the...

View best answer, chosen by maxdancona

You are reading an evangelical bible again aren't you?

Try the St.Joseph's or the New English version.

1 Reply

@Sturgis,

You mean, you can pick and choose which one you want to believe?

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@roger,

No, he means max is misinterpreting the bible. That sent even close to what it says. But google the passage to find the various meanings.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

If you read the Bible it is very clear that God favors nationalism, grants favors to wealthy people and hates mercy.

The main message of Christ was self-reliance. People should care for their own needs. If you offer compassion or mercy to people who are desperate and in you create a welfare state where people will depend on something other than themselves.

1. Are you being sarcastic?

2. Is this this suppose to be sarcasm?

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@maxdancona,

Heh.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

If you read the Bible it is very clear that God favors nationalism, grants favors to wealthy people and hates mercy.

Which Bible is that? The same one that explains it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven? And where is nationalism favored in the Bible? And where is mercy ever mentioned in a negative way?

Quote:

The main message of Christ was self-reliance. People should care for their own needs. If you offer compassion or mercy to people who are desperate and in you create a welfare state where people will depend on something other than themselves.

The miracle of the fish and the loaves: what does it mean? What about the miracle of turning water into wine?

Imo, the latter (fish and loaves) refers to the creation of abundance by breaking the 'pie' into ever smaller pieces. That means you should reduce how much you take so that there is more to go around. There are many ways to do this.

Turning water to wine refers to the inherent abundance of spirituality over materiality. Jesus says that the host of a party brings out the best wine first and later, once everyone is drunk, brings out the vinegar. The general implication is the same as what is described in Buddhism as suffering caused by impermanence. Materialities are temporary but spirit is eternal.

Quote:

The story of Jesus stoning a woman caught in sin was the highlight of his life. When he said if this woman has any sin, throw the first stone... he was clearly saying that once someone breaks a law, they lose God's love or any right of compassion.

That's not what happened in that story. Jesus said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," and they all dropped their stones. It means that because people all reflected on their own sins and the fact that they hadn't been judged/adjudicated for them, neither should they judge this adulterous by stoning her.

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Trump is doing, you put someone's kids in jail it sends a message that God is not a God of compassion.

The traffickers who are abusing children by sending them across the border are not being compassionate. The government has to send a message that the facilities for detaining children aren't like day care or traffickers will pay parents to send their kids across the border as mules and/or distractions so other mules have less police to deal with. Parents can't think, "sure, give me the money and my kid will get a nice comfortable room and board vacation until the process him/her and them back to me."

Obviously no one wants children being abused, but the reality is that encouraging traffickers and parents to send their kids across the border by providing five-star accomodations is encouraging abuse, the same way the pleasure of recreational drug use encourages addiction/abuse.

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And when he said "Blessed are the Fair of Skin"... the message was clear. God gave the promised land in North America to White Americans and gave them the command to "keep out the stranger". Jesus was clearly a nationalist.

Now I get it. You're just being sarcastic because you don't understand the policies and you want to spin them as being in conflict with the Bible.

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Trump is acting like Jesus. Why are people criticizing him?

Watch some Christian TV. Trump is beloved. Socialism is feared. Abortion is described as "baby killing." Obviously the Democrats would have to go along way becoming anti-abortion to win them over.

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@livinglava,

Of course I wasn't talking about Christian TV. There is no one who supports the interests of White Christian America better than Christian TV. Obviously they support Trump. (It is interesting that there aren't many true Black Christians. There are Black "churches" of course, but they don't support Trump so much because Black people don't support Christian American values). But why the Black Church can't submit and be like the White Church is a topic for another thread.

LvingLava is correct. When Jesus' disciples tried to bring the children to Jesus. Jesus was upset, and said "Let the Children Suffer who come unto me, and then send them back where they came from". You see Jesus was concerned about drug traffickers so he knew the children had to be made to suffer rather than taking care of their needs.

Trump is completely in line with the gospel.

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

If you read the Bible it is very clear that God favors nationalism, grants favors to wealthy people and hates mercy.

Which Bible is that?

It appears that Max is using the Landover Baptist Church Bible. Satire makes a huge whooshing sound as it passes over the heads of Trumpland.

1 Reply

@mesquite,

mesquite wrote:

livinglava wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

If you read the Bible it is very clear that God favors nationalism, grants favors to wealthy people and hates mercy.

Which Bible is that?

It appears that Max is using the Landover Baptist Church Bible. Satire makes a huge whooshing sound as it passes over the heads of Trumpland.

I just dislike the satire/sarcasm because it confounds all the meanings to the point that discussing them is difficult.

E.g. Maxdancona can hold a slanted idea of what kind of mercy is promoted in the Bible, but as long as he talks about mercy in a sarcastic negative way, the implicit/shadow meaning conveyed is that he is on the side of mercy and Christians who support Trump are against mercy.

If he wants to discuss that, then he should just say it outright in a way that others can respond. He could say, for example, that closing abortion clinics is merciless treatment of women suffering from unwanted pregnancies; but then a Christian would respond that there is mercy in carrying a pregnancy to term because you get a precious little baby once your 'cross-bearing' has reached the point of delivery/deliverance.

Anyway, the point is that these could be interesting, fruitful discussions if everyone wasn't so busy posturing and spinning words without really explaining the thoughts and ideas for the sake of lucid discussion of them.

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Anyway, the point is that these could be interesting, fruitful discussions if everyone wasn't so busy posturing and spinning words without really explaining the thoughts and ideas for the sake of lucid discussion of them.

Ok, you first.

Show how unposturing is actually done.

You certainly haven't proved it in any of your posts.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Jesus isn't about mercy... why should Christians be about mercy?

That is why when people talk about what is happening to children in detention centers (which would be mercy) Trump Christians talk about drug dealers and abortion clinics. There are things that are far more important than keeping children with their parents (and out of detention centers) while they are asking for asylum.

Jesus also said "judge others so you will not be judged yourself".

I don't know why LivingLava is talking about "spinning"... there really is no spinning. Jesus never offered help to people who were in trouble unless they were Americans and followed the law. You are either following his harsh example or you are not.

While we are at it... what is it with Christians who don't speak English?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Jesus never offered help to people who were in trouble unless they were Americans and followed the law.

I don't know a lot about Jesus stuff, but that just don't sound right.

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@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

livinglava wrote:
Anyway, the point is that these could be interesting, fruitful discussions if everyone wasn't so busy posturing and spinning words without really explaining the thoughts and ideas for the sake of lucid discussion of them.

Ok, you first.

Show how unposturing is actually done.

You certainly haven't proved it in any of your posts.

[/quote]
Everything I post contains food for discussion, but I can't stop you or anyone else from spinning it however you choose to in your response.

You have to stop reacting to others and start posting thoughtful content if you want real discussion. If all you want is dramatic back-and-forth, that's another story.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Jesus isn't about mercy... why should Christians be about mercy?

That is why when people talk about what is happening to children in detention centers (which would be mercy) Trump Christians talk about drug dealers and abortion clinics. There are things that are far more important than keeping children with their parents (and out of detention centers) while they are asking for asylum.

Like I said, it is the traffickers and the children's parents, who are either being bribed or threatened so that they send their kids to the border; who are abusing their children.

Detaining the children is a form of mercy, even if the conditions aren't optimal, is a mercy compared with allowing them to be trafficked unhindered. At least detaining them creates a deterrent for trafficking, which means less likelihood of them being trafficked repeatedly.

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Jesus also said "judge others so you will not be judged yourself".

I'm getting tired of all this satanic-styled provocation. You know that's not what Jesus said and you're twisting it intentionally to get a reaction.

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I don't know why LivingLava is talking about "spinning"... there really is no spinning. Jesus never offered help to people who were in trouble unless they were Americans and followed the law. You are either following his harsh example or you are not.

Jesus died for everyone to be saved from sin. It's been a done deal for two millennia. Spreading the good news of Christ doesn't stop at national borders or even language barriers. The gospel is preached in every language, as far as I know.

If you discover some language that the gospel hasn't been translated into, contact the Catholic church or some other organization that supports Bible translation/publication and I'm sure they will be eager to find someone to do the translation.

Quote:

While we are at it... what is it with Christians who don't speak English?

This sarcasm is so irritating to read. It's like when someone pouts and says, "you don't really love me," in order to manipulate you into proving that you do.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

I agree completely, LivingLava

When Jesus told people to throw stones at a woman who was caught in sin... part of the reason for this is that Jesus wanted to send a message. Sparing this woman would have been an incentive for other women to sin. If you want to stop other women from being sinful, you need to make the women pay the price. I am sure that this woman was being bribed or threatened into sin.

Of course, sinful women are also targets of Traffickers... so sparing the woman's life would have meant that Jesus was in favor of drug traffickers and terrorists. Sparing her life would have helped the traffickers.

That is why Jesus never showed mercy. And why Trump can't show mercy to the kids crossing the border.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

When Jesus told people to throw stones at a woman who was caught in sin... part of the reason for this is that Jesus wanted to send a message. Sparing this woman would have been an incentive for other women to sin. If you want to stop other women from being sinful, you need to make the women pay the price. I am sure that this woman was being bribed or threatened into sin.

If she was, that didn't come out in the story, as I remember it anyway.

The bottom line is that the Bible/Jesus urges forgiveness and mercy, but also encourages rebuke. Many contemporary people either can't tell the difference between judgment and rebuke or they just equate rebuke with judgment because they don't want to be rebuked/reproved/corrected.

Quote:

Of course, sinful women are also targets of Traffickers... so sparing the woman's life would have meant that Jesus was in favor of drug traffickers and terrorists. Sparing her life would have helped the traffickers.

It could have, yes. Your sarcasm seemed to aimed at ignoring trafficking but the fact is that it happens and those who are shielding it from correction are hurting the chances of gaining popular support for humanitarian aide policies.

In fact, I actually see trafficking and the drug industry generally as tactics used by hate/oppression to stimulate the public to forsake people and entire neighborhoods and even nations. If you know that the poor somewhere are being used by traffickers to manipulate people with money and steal, it makes it much more difficult to help them; just as if you know that someone might rob or kill you if you help them, it deters you from helping them.

It is a politics of fear. If we could just stop the trafficking and other forms of exploitation that threaten people who have the power to help others, then it would be much easier to achieve those humanitarian policies, i.e. because their would be no fear that they would go toward aiding and abetting the enemy.

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That is why Jesus never showed mercy. And why Trump can't show mercy to the kids crossing the border.

They DO show them mercy! Do you realize there are parts of the world and times in history where children are slaughtered like animals? The fact that they are sending out a message that border detention isn't a fun summer-camp to send your kids to temporarily so you can get paid by traffickers doesn't mean the kids aren't being protected and fed.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Quote:

The bottom line is that the Bible/Jesus urges forgiveness and mercy, but also encourages rebuke.

Oh Yes! Jesus was always rebuking people who were in need. Not only the woman in sin that he told his followers to sin, or the children who he said should suffer rather than accepting them.

In Matthew 9:13 Jesus said that sacrifice is more important mercy... and he was saying this as part of an explanation of why he wanted to build a wall to keep "sinners" out of the country.

And then there was the story of the Samaritan. To Jesus the Samaritans were Mexicans... people in the south who stole jobs and brought drugs across the border. In Jesus' story, the righteous people walked by without helping, while the Samaritan helped someone who was probably working for the drug Traffickers.

LivingLava is correct about "mercy".

Mercy isn't about helping families with compassion and forgiveness. Mercy is about judging families. It is about making the journey for the "stranger" as difficult and painful as possible. It is about jailing children and making sure that their parents are punished without any regards to their needs or circumstances.

Mercy means assuming that any Samaritan, or Mexican or anyone with brown skin is assumed to be a drug dealer.

That is why Jesus separated children from their families to put them in jail cells rather than letting them come to him.

LivingLava has the Trump Jesus down pretty well.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Oh Yes! Jesus was always rebuking people who were in need. Not only the woman in sin that he told his followers to sin, or the children who he said should suffer rather than accepting them.

After saving the woman, he told her to "sin no more."

Quote:

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Quote:

In Matthew 9:13 Jesus said that sacrifice is more important mercy... and he was saying this as part of an explanation of why he wanted to build a wall to keep "sinners" out of the country.

Read the whole story that comes before it. The pharisees ask why Jesus eats with sinners and he says because the sick need a doctor. He is talking about rebuking/correcting sin.

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10 While he was having dinner at Matthew’s[f] home, many tax collectors and sinners arrived and began eating with Jesus and his disciples. 11 The Pharisees saw this and asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus[g] heard that, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a physician, but sick people do. 13 Go and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’[h] because I did not come to call righteous people, but sinners.”

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And then there was the story of the Samaritan. To Jesus the Samaritans were Mexicans... people in the south who stole jobs and brought drugs across the border. In Jesus' story, the righteous people walked by without helping, while the Samaritan helped someone who was probably working for the drug Traffickers.

You don't get it. There are bad BAD people who know the story of the Samaritan and are trying to use it to manipulate Christians by sending their slaves to push charity and good will to the limit. If these traffickers were Christians, they wouldn't be sending those people, but they would be helping them themselves. This is a political game they are playing trying to beat goodness by overburdening it with fixing all the harm they create.

Even in war, there are always small acts of mercy. Even people dying in battle can receive grace and mercy and deliverance at the spiritual level as their souls pass on the hereafter. God willing, the traffickers will give up and end the war and then there will be nothing to do but solve the problems of poverty.

What you are doing is trying to use Jesus' calls to mercy as a weapon against soldiers so that the enemy can gain more leverage against them. Jesus said forgive your enemies and turn the other cheek, but this can just as easily be heeded by the traffickers as a response to their enemies.

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Mercy isn't about helping families with compassion and forgiveness. Mercy is about judging families. It is about making the journey for the "stranger" as difficult and painful as possible. It is about jailing children and making sure that their parents are punished without any regards to their needs or circumstances.

Mercy is about forgiveness of sin and salvation. Which families are being condemned for their sins and how?

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Mercy means assuming that any Samaritan, or Mexican or anyone with brown skin is assumed to be a drug dealer.

Of course not everyone is a drug dealer, but traffickers have a lot of money and power to manipulation people who are not direction connected with drug operations to do things that help the operation.

Repeatedly I have given the example of paying people to attempt illegal border crossing just for the sake of creating a distraction for the police so the real mules can get through easier. When people can be bought cheaply, you can use them in multitudes for all sorts of little things.

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That is why Jesus separated children from their families to put them in jail cells rather than letting them come to him.

Would Jesus have paid and/or bullied families to send their children across the border as a distraction for border agents so that he could send other people as drug mules across the border to serve wealthy drug users who don't care that children are being abused as part of the operations to bring them their drugs?

2 Replies

@livinglava,

Quote:

There are bad BAD people who know the story of the Samaritan and are trying to use it to manipulate Christians

This is my favorite line... We wouldn't want anyone to manipulate Christians into being loving or compassionate.

1 Reply

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