Can you be a Christian and not support Trump?

@livinglava,

Of course LivingLava is correct. The way to stop "traffickers" is to punish the families and children who are victimized by them. It makes perfect sense. That is why Jesus would be in favor of putting families in jails.

Jesus wouldn't have focused on the needs of the families and the children. For Jesus, it wasn't about compassion... it was about law enforcement and the "political" battle that LivingLava is focused. Jesus loved law enforcement. Of course Jesus would never forgive traffickers. He told us to slap them on the other check. He would never forgive the desperate families trying to get here.

And as LivingLava points out Jesus wasn't about helping people in real life. He didn't heal the sick. He never told his disciples to sell their possessions to give to the poor. Jesus was only converting people so that their "sins" would be forgiven. He wasn't so concerned about actually helping people or showing compassion here on Earth.

That's what is so great about religion. If you offer people religion you don't need to care if they are suffering.

That is why Trump's policies make sense. There is no need to worry about people in need here as long as we are giving them a promise of heaven.

It is a good thing there are no Christians in Guatemala or Honduras... because that would make things complicated. Of course, any American Christian living under poverty and violence there would stay put not worrying about the future of their children. But God loves American Christians, so He would never put them in that situation anyway.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

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There are bad BAD people who know the story of the Samaritan and are trying to use it to manipulate Christians

This is my favorite line... We wouldn't want anyone to manipulate Christians into being loving or compassionate.

They're not trying to manipulate them for the benefit of the people they're using as mules and decoys. They're trying to manipulate them to loosen border security and thus make it easier for them to send in drugs and prostitutes and bring back dollars from the people who buy the drugs and sex.

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@livinglava,

Exactly! Jesus was all about strong border enforcement, and following the law in general. Jesus would absolutely be in favor of putting families and children into jail. Christians shouldn't be fooled into showing compassion.

In Matthew 12:11 Jesus said "If anyone one of you had a sheep who broke the law... would you not throw it down into a pit?".

The point Jesus was making is that if a law is being broken, you can't have compassion. You have to make the law-breakers pay and their victims pay... even if it means putting families and children into jail.

... that's what it means to throw your sheep into a pit.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Of course LivingLava is correct. The way to stop "traffickers" is to punish the families and children who are victimized by them. It makes perfect sense. That is why Jesus would be in favor of putting families in jails.

Ideally the abuse of adults and children as mules and decoys could be stopped by just creating the illusion that the border security is merciless, and that would deter people from sending their children.

The problem is that as soon as word gets out that the border security is not actually merciless, but rather a nice resort where you can be detained comfortably and later return to get paid for your time by traffickers who can afford to invest in distracting the police; the moment word gets out, that undermines the effect of the propaganda and the deterrent doesn't work anymore.

And, btw, what's worse: 1) being in jail, or 2) being bossed around by traffickers to do what they say and send money to them so they will go easier on your loved ones back home?

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Jesus wouldn't have focused on the needs of the families and the children. For Jesus, it wasn't about compassion... it was about law enforcement and the "political" battle that LivingLava is focused. Jesus loved law enforcement. Of course Jesus would never forgive traffickers. He told us to slap them on the other check. He would never forgive the desperate families trying to get here.

Of course the sins of traffickers are forgiven through Christ like everyone else's, which is why they should reform their ways and stop trafficking.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that many would be crucified by their peers in organized crime if they tried to quit the business.

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And as LivingLava points out Jesus wasn't about helping people in real life. He didn't heal the sick. He never told his disciples to sell their possessions to give to the poor. Jesus was only converting people so that their "sins" would be forgiven. He wasn't so concerned about actually helping people or showing compassion here on Earth.

That's what is so great about religion. If you offer people religion you don't need to care if they are suffering.

God still performs all the miracles you mention. Watch Christian TV and you will hear example after example of present day miracles, healing, etc. that go on.

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That is why Trump's policies make sense. There is no need to worry about people in need here as long as we are giving them a promise of heaven.

Republicans simply see it as up to the people to decide how to handle social/societal problems.

Imo, the economy is too greedy and wasteful. If people would reduce their spending and waste, there would be less money to make and jobs to go around at first. But if we would start breaking apart the jobs the way Jesus broke apart the loaves and the fish, everyone would get a little money and then we would be able to figure out where poor people are failing at achieving what others are in their work.

In our current economy, it is very difficult for the poor to work because of so many constraints on what terms of employment employers are willing and allowed to give. You can't just go to a local farm and sign up for as many hours of work you have to invest and then do the work at whatever time of day you want. You have to conform to employer scheduling needs, etc. so I have talked with homeless people who know they just aren't reliable enough to take such a job. One guy even told me that he could feel it when his personalities changed due to his schizophrenia. Such a person should be able to work when he's able, and that would be possible if there was more flexible work to do where you can do the work when it's convenient for you and not worry about skipping work when you can't for whatever reason.

We simply push our economy too hard to give people that kind of flexibility, so the poor get written off as unreliable. People don't have time to deal with unreliability because the rat race is so competitive due to all the greed and waste. If people generally lived more conservatively, there would be many less products and production processes would be simpler, so everyone would have less work to do for less money. Most people want the opposite of that, though, and that is what shuts out the poor from joining in, among other things.

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It is a good thing there are no Christians in Guatemala or Honduras... because that would make things complicated. Of course, any American Christian living under poverty and violence there would stay put not worrying about the future of their children. But God loves American Christians, so He would never put them in that situation anyway.

God loves ALL His children, whether they are Christian or not. Christians are just spreading the word of Christ so that people have the opportunity to realize their salvation.

I personally believe that everyone ultimately can make it to heaven, once they are reborn in spirit and submit to the long process of sanctification. I also believe in purgatory, because I know that not everyone can be sanctified before they die. I doubt you care about what people's souls go through following their deaths, do you?

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Christain shouldn't get fooled by the lies of compassion.

- Compassion isn't for migrant families fleeing poverty and violence. That just plays into the hands of the traffickers.

- Compassion isn't for young black males facing unfair suspicion from police. That just plays into the hands of thugs.

- Compassion isn't for poor people. That just plays into the hands of welfare cheats and lazy people.

- Compassion isn't for people without health insurance. That just plays into the hands of people without jobs.

Compassion is for White Christians who have money. They have every right to make sure no one speaks another language, or holds hands with someone of the same sex, or wears clothes that makes them feel uncomfortable or do anything that isn't their view of American.

That is the Christian message.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Christain shouldn't get fooled by the lies of compassion.

- Compassion isn't for migrant families fleeing poverty and violence. That just plays into the hands of the traffickers.

- Compassion isn't for young black males facing unfair suspicion from police. That just plays into the hands of thugs.

- Compassion isn't for poor people. That just plays into the hands of welfare cheats and lazy people.

- Compassion isn't for people without health insurance. That just plays into the hands of people without jobs.

Compassion is for White Christians who have money. They have every right to make sure no one speaks another language, or holds hands with someone of the same sex, or wears clothes that makes them feel uncomfortable or do anything that isn't their view of American.

That is the Christian message.

What do you know of compassion? I think you are confusing compassion with passion. You are hedonist who likes to indulge in sexual pleasure, so passion is really what you value, not compassion.

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@livinglava,

Of course LivingLava.

Jesus would want to keep these people living desperate lives facing poverty and violence in a place that they can't bother White America Christians. Jesus was all about using fear to keep people from seeking help.

The WORST thing for these families would be if we treated them like human beings... giving them help, a place to live and providing a way to have a better life. It is far better to keep them in jail I think.

That is the point. Showing compassion to these migrant families means putting them in jail and separating them from their children.

Jesus would definitely put these families in Jail.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Jesus would want to keep these people living desperate lives facing poverty and violence in a place that they can't bother White America Christians.

You need to review the history of the world and liberty's place in it. The global forces of imperialism/capitalism/socialism have never embraced the American Dream of liberty. They scoff at it and only seek as much power over people as they can get, in order to exploit them for the benefit of the privileged.

Mexico exports food to the US, so there is obviously enough food being produced in Mexico that no one there has to go hungry. Despite that fact, drugs and slaves are also produced/trafficked by people who aren't satisfied to live as poor farmers. Why is that? Why is there desperation and violence in a place where more food is being produced than consumed?

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The WORST thing for these families would be if we treated them like human beings... giving them help, a place to live and providing a way to have a better life. It is far better to keep them in jail I think.

If Mexico is exporting food, why can't the people living there afford to eat and live free without subjecting themselves to arrest by doing the bidding of bullies who want them to go sell drugs and sex to rich Americans?

Now I have been answering your questions and responding with questions of my own. Do you think you could answer any of my questions now, or will you just go on ignoring them to post your manipulative spin propaganda?

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@livinglava,

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You are hedonist who likes to indulge in sexual pleasure, so passion is really what you value, not compassion.

Yes! Jesus was obsessed with the sex lives of others... in fact he talked about it all of the time. He said "Judge others, so you will not be judged yourself."

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The global forces of imperialism/capitalism/socialism have never embraced the American Dream of liberty

The global forces or imperialism and socialism really bothered Jesus too (since this is a thread about Jesus). That was the main reason he told his disciples not to help people. He implored them not to sell their own possessions to help the poor, or to heal the sick (unless they were Americans with private health care).

Jesus wasn't worried about needs of people. He especially didn't care about migrant families. What worried Jesus was the American battle against socialism and making sure that other Nations didn't take advantage of worthy Americans.

Jesus hates Mexico too... which is why he wouldn't care about migrant families.

Jesus would put families and children into jail... because Mexico exports food... yeah, that makes sense.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

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You are hedonist who likes to indulge in sexual pleasure, so passion is really what you value, not compassion.

Yes! Jesus was obsessed with the sex lives of others... in fact he talked about it all of the time. He said "Judge others, so you will not be judged yourself."

You aren't a Christian so the things you say/imply about Jesus with your sarcasm are meaninglessly transparent. They are just you using the name of Jesus to try to manipulate Christians toward your own POV and manipulative spin.

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The global forces of imperialism/capitalism/socialism have never embraced the American Dream of liberty

The global forces or imperialism and socialism really bothered Jesus too (since this is a thread about Jesus). That was the main reason he told his disciples not to help people. He implored them not to sell their own possessions to help the poor, or to heal the sick (unless they were Americans with private health care).

Check out Matthew 21:

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12Then Jesus went into the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those selling doves. 13And He declared to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer.’ But you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”…

He also wanted to reject Roman capitalism by simply 'rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's' There are different interpretations of this, I think, but it seems like a subtle rejection of Roman/imperial capitalism under Caesar.

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Jesus wasn't worried about needs of people. He especially didn't care about migrant families. What worried Jesus was the American battle against socialism and making sure that other Nations didn't take advantage of worthy Americans.

Socialism escalates the use of money to effectuate social-governmental projects, beyond simply leaving it alone as a medium of exchange for commerce.

Why do you think Jesus would be for using money to effectuate charity and goodwill? Why don't you think he wanted us to support each other directly instead of financially?

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Jesus hates Mexico too... which is why he wouldn't care about migrant families.

Lumping the good and bad people of Mexico together is nationalist. "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten son." There are plenty of saved Christians in Mexico, aren't there? The Virgin Mary is the national patron saint, for goodness sake!

God knows I've been praying about migration for much longer than Trump has been in office or DACA was implemented. The issue is unbelievably complex. The true solution is to open all borders throughout the world and allow everyone to migrate wherever their liberty leads them. What you have to realize, however, is that if all borders were opened and everyone was allowed to work wherever they move, a LOT of exploitation would ensue. People would be migrating just to establish trafficking routes and procure organized crime. I watched a BBC documentary a few years ago that opened my eyes as to how much global organized crime has grown in the age of 'globalization.' This surprised me since I don't see globalism as a new thing. In fact it's as old as colonialism and actually much older. Nevertheless, because we live in a nationalist age, criminals see border permeability not as an opportunity to live free and contribute to the greater global good but as an opportunity to exploit others whom they don't care about as much as their own countrymen. It is sad that national loyalty makes free migration to the US a thing that too many people want to exploit, but that is the reality in a world that hates and envies the US for so many reasons.

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Jesus would put families and children into jail... because Mexico exports food... yeah, that makes sense.

You're just not going to respond to anything I say intelligently, are you? You must be drinking when you're posting all this aggressive sarcasm.

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Talk about a whole lot of nothing discussion.

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@livinglava,

Exactly right LivingLava.

The money changes that Jesus attacked were desperate people fleeing poverty and violence from poor countries... they are exactly the same. Jesus attacked the most desperate people... he had compassion on people who were White and well off.

And you are right, Jesus was a nationalist, he was so concerned about national borders .... which was the point of the story about the Samaritan; Samaria is a crime ridden backwards country with so much crime so much crime an incredible amount of crime.

In the time of Jesus the Roman Empire ruled. The Romans controlled the border and made rules about who was a citizen or not. Jesus loved the Romans and was obsessed with making sure that the Roman laws were followed.

Jesus gave us many reasons to not have compassion.

That is why Jesus would put families and children in jail rather than helping them find a better life.

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@livinglava,

Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan (see Luke 10) to illustrate what you were saying.... Some Pharisee was trying to say how it simple it was... saying all we had to do was "Love God with all our heart... and to love our neighbor". As if it was that simple.

Jesus pointed out that if it was that simple, it would mean we have to accept Samaritans (and today Mexicans) as our neighbors and as human beings.

Jesus told this story to illustrate that it isn't simple. That showing compassion has to be weighed against factors like global politics and nationalism. We have to put families and children in detention camps because American global political considerations and fears of international crimes and borders and socialism make treating migrants as human beings with dignity impossible.

This is why Jesus taught against compassion.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The money changes that Jesus attacked were desperate people fleeing poverty and violence from poor countries... they are exactly the same. Jesus attacked the most desperate people... he had compassion on people who were White and well off.

Jesus lived in a time when there was much Hebrew resistance against Roman Imperialism. The famous quote about rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's was in reference to the issue of paying taxes to Rome.
From Wikipedia:

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All three synoptic gospels state that hostile questioners tried to trap Jesus into taking an explicit and dangerous stand on whether Jews should or should not pay taxes to the Roman authorities. The accounts in Matthew 22:15–22 and Mark 12:13–17 say that the questioners were Pharisees and Herodians, while Luke 20:20–26 says only that they were "spies" sent by "teachers of the law and the chief priests".
Caesar's Coin, by Peter Paul Rubens

They anticipated that Jesus would oppose the tax, as their purpose was "to hand him over to the power and authority of the governor".[Luke 20:20] The governor was Pilate, and he was the man responsible for the collecting of taxes in Roman Judea. At first the questioners flattered Jesus by praising his integrity, impartiality, and devotion to truth. Then they asked him whether or not it is right for Jews to pay the taxes demanded by Caesar. In the Gospel of Mark[12:15] the additional, provocative question is asked, "Should we pay or shouldn't we?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar

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And you are right, Jesus was a nationalist, he was so concerned about national borders .... which was the point of the story about the Samaritan; Samaria is a crime ridden backwards country with so much crime so much crime an incredible amount of crime.

Jesus said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's" and made peace with nationalism and imperialism in this way. Four centuries later the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as state religion and the rest is history.

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In the time of Jesus the Roman Empire ruled. The Romans controlled the border and made rules about who was a citizen or not. Jesus loved the Romans and was obsessed with making sure that the Roman laws were followed.

"Render unto Caesar things that are Caesar's" says a lot. The wikipedia quote above puts it in context. Jesus obviously couldn't fully support the Roman empire since His kingdom was not of this Earth, as He said to Pilate, but He was also forgiving enemies, 'turning the other cheek,' and thus attempting to encourage sinners to reform.

Isn't it amazing that a few centuries later, the Roman Emperor adopted Christianity as the official religion?

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Jesus gave us many reasons to not have compassion.

That is why Jesus would put families and children in jail rather than helping them find a better life.

Maybe detention is the beginning of a better life for many of these people. Assuming the traffickers stop pressuring them to migrate once they have a record that could get them into even more trouble, the bullies might just let them stay with their families and farm the land. Could that be a better life Jesus would wish for them or did you have something else in mind? Maybe you think Jesus would advocate for giving them more purchasing power so they could indulge in more brand-name purchases and enjoy higher social status, pride, inspire envy in others, get tempted into greed/gluttony/lust and other sins? Is that what you think Jesus wanted for people?

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@livinglava,

Exactly right LivingLava. Jesus loved Rome. Jesus was obsessed with seeing Roman laws followed. Rome had laws about borders and citizenship which Jesus supported. Every year on Roman independence day Jesus waved the Roman flag and supported the Roman troops.

Romans were known to be cruel... but Jesus thought that this was justified. The Romans needed to be stop international socialism and to protect its borders.

The Romans had a punishment for non-citizens who defied their laws that involved nailing people to the cross. Many people thought that this was excessive, it caused pain and separated families. But then, no one really cared since Romans didn't have to face this suffering. J

esus thought crucifixion was a great idea.... let people think it was cruel, it was necessary to keep Rome First. That is why Christians should support acts of cruelty (like putting families and children in detention camps).

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Exactly right LivingLava. Jesus loved Rome. Jesus was obsessed with seeing Roman laws followed. Rome had laws about borders and citizenship which Jesus supported. Every year on Roman independence day Jesus waved the Roman flag and supported the Roman troops.

Romans were known to be cruel... but Jesus thought that this was justified. The Romans needed to be stop international socialism and to protect its borders.

The Romans had a punishment for non-citizens who defied their laws that involved nailing people to the cross. Many people thought that this was excessive, it caused pain and separated families. But then, no one really cared since Romans didn't have to face this suffering. J

esus thought crucifixion was a great idea.... let people think it was cruel, it was necessary to keep Rome First. That is why Christians should support acts of cruelty (like putting families and children in detention camps).

Sarcasm only works if what you are implying by not saying it is actually meaningful.

Your inverted point with your sarcasm seems to be that Jesus didn't like the Roman empire because there was sin going on. Well, duh! But Romans weren't the only sinners and Jesus wanted to save all people from sin, not just Hebrews or anyone else in particular. Paul actually did a lot of the work of bringing Jesus' message to Romans (check out the book of the Bible called, 'Romans' for example). Jesus didn't hate Romans any more than any other sinners, though. In fact, Jesus didn't hate sinners at all. He loved them, which is why he wanted to save and redeem them from sin.

It took a few centuries, but Christianity was eventually adopted as the religion of the Roman Empire, not that Rome didn't fall to Barbarians a century and a half after converting to Christianity.

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We are talking about why Jesus wouldn't show compassion for famulies and children coming across the border. During hus life Jesus didnt show any compassion for children, foreigners, victims of crime or lawbreakers.

On all this we agree.

In Jesus' time Rome was the world power. It was in the position that the United States is in now. This is why first and foremost Jesus was intetested in putting Rome First... and this is why he supported the law enforcement policies of the Roman government even though some people thought that nailing people to crosses was cruel.

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Can you be a Christian and not support Trump?

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